How can we reconcile the argument of intelligent design with supposed design flaws?

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St Thomas certainly believed in miracles. God is not “forced” to perform them because He knows whether they are for our ultimate benefit.
Sure, but Thomas’ argument doesn’t need miracles since “Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works, unless He were so almighty and so good as to produce good even from evil”. No miracles are needed to make that argument work.

“Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works”. That’s never, ever. Whereas you say God “permits unfortunate coincidences”. That’s not never, so you’re then forced to argue that God sometimes (you say “He also prevents many”) undoes the evil by “intervention, i.e. by working miracles”.
It is your argument that leads to deism because you imply that God never overrides natural laws.
I’m not making any argument, I’m simply quoting Thomas, and Thomas doesn’t imply that God never overrides laws of nature, it’s simply Thomas doesn’t need that for his argument to work.
Unfortunate coincidences are inevitable sooner or later because natural laws cannot possibly cater for every contingency. Sooner or later some one is bound to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - unless you go to the other extreme and believe God determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment. Which is it to be? Always or never?
Removing the subjective language, I think what you mean is that sometimes nature produces effects that cause harm.

Thomas says God permits these events in His providence since otherwise “much good would be absent from the universe”. He gives examples: “A lion would cease to live, if there were no slaying of animals; and there would be no patience of martyrs if there were no tyrannical persecution”. So, according to Thomas, harm occurs since the alternative would be that less good exists.

Whereas you say that it would be extreme to believe that “God determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment”. Implying that Jesus is extreme to claim that not one sparrow “will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care” (Matt 10).

Which is it to be? Jesus and Thomas, or Tony? You don’t have to keep defending the exact wording of your “Positive Negative” formula, you could always revise it to avoid all these problems ;).
 
I suppose it wouldn’t be much of a stretch to move from God produces “good even from evil,” to “God produces good even from unfortunate coincidences.” I am not sure why simply permitting some events to be random or coincidental turns a theistic God into a deistic one.
Random events could only occur if God has left the scene, since in the presence of providence Thomas argues “Nothing hinders certain things happening by luck or by chance, if compared to their proximate causes: but not if compared to Divine Providence, whereby ‘nothing happens at random in the world’ as Augustine says”.
Again, this is unclear in terms of the logical inferences. It would seem legitimate to assume that if God is “so mighty” as to permit free will – the introduction of novel causal sequences brought about by the free wills of individual beings – then it would seem true a fortiori that he could also permit random events or unfortunate coincidences without his omnipotence taking a hit.
Thomas argues “We must therefore say that what happens here by accident, both in natural things and in human affairs, is reduced to a preordaining cause, which is Divine Providence.”
It would seem omnipotence does NOT entail necessarily dominating every conversation or activity merely BECAUSE one is omnipotent. Surely, omnipotence permits God to omnisciently choose when to intervene and when not to, rather than being forced to intervene in EVERY instance as a logical constraint on omnipotence or being compelled by capricious, though uninformed, human notions of what omnipotence NECESSARILY entails.
Thomas doesn’t require God to intervene, since “‘If God foreknew that this would happen, it will happen.’ Wherefore Boethius, having said that the chain of fate is fickle, shortly afterwards adds—‘which, since it is derived from an unchangeable Providence must also itself be unchangeable.’”
*Neither does Thomas’ “argument” imply that God cannot use miracles nor does it presume miracles can only be used to “prove” God is good rather than, say, merely to bring about a freely God-determined good unrestricted by human policies and presumptions vIs a vIs what omnipotence can and cannot get away with relative to “proving” himself or his goodness in front of human critics.
I would assume the only relevance his argument has to “normal life” is in the attempt to make sense of our experience of it – a relevance that those “naughty materialists” simply ignore or explain away.
*
Thomas’ argument doesn’t require require God to intervene, since “If God foreknew that this would happen, it will happen”. But nor does he rule out miracles. Thomas’ argument works even if God allows everything to evolve, or whatever else, since “If God foreknew that this would happen, it will happen”.

I’ve strong reservations about Thomism, but must admit that his argument on fate seems copper-bottomed bomb-proof.
 
St Thomas certainly believed in miracles. God is not “forced” to perform them because He knows whether they are for our ultimate benefit.

Sure, but Thomas’ argument doesn’t need miracles since “Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works, unless He were so almighty and so good as to produce good even from evil”. No miracles are needed to make that argument work.

“Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works”. That’s never, ever. Whereas you say God “permits unfortunate coincidences”. That’s not never, so you’re then forced to argue that God sometimes (you say “He also prevents many”) undoes the evil by “intervention, i.e. by working miracles”.
So evil is an illusion?
It is your argument that leads to deism because you imply that God never overrides natural laws.
I’m not making any argument, I’m simply quoting Thomas, and Thomas doesn’t imply that God never overrides laws of nature, it’s simply Thomas doesn’t need that for his argument to work.

Don’t you agree with St Thomas on this point and believe the laws of nature never lead to disease, disasters and deformities?
Unfortunate coincidences are inevitable sooner or later because natural laws cannot possibly cater for every contingency. Sooner or later some one is bound to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - unless you go to the other extreme and believe God determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment. Which is it to be? Always or never?
Removing the subjective language, I think what you mean is that sometimes nature produces effects that cause harm.

Do you believe God determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment?
Thomas says God permits these events in His providence since otherwise “much good would be absent from the universe”. He gives examples: “A lion would cease to live, if there were no slaying of animals; and there would be no patience of martyrs if there were no tyrannical persecution”. So, according to Thomas, harm occurs since the alternative would be that less good exists.
Is harm evil?
Whereas you say that it would be extreme to believe that “God determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment”. Implying that Jesus is extreme to claim that not one sparrow “will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care” (Matt 10).
Does God cause the sparrow to fall?
Which is it to be? Jesus and Thomas, or Tony? You don’t have to keep defending the exact wording of your “Positive Negative” formula, you could always revise it to avoid all these problems .
The problems exist in your interpretation of Providence in which God is directly responsible for every single event in the universe including disasters and human atrocities, apparently determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment and ensures that all events have positive consequences even when they are harmful.
 
Random events could only occur if God has left the scene, since in the presence of providence Thomas argues “Nothing hinders certain things happening by luck or by chance, if compared to their proximate causes: but not if compared to Divine Providence, whereby ‘nothing happens at random in the world’ as Augustine says”.

Thomas argues “We must therefore say that what happens here by accident, both in natural things and in human affairs, is reduced to a preordaining cause, which is Divine Providence.”
I suspect you are misunderstanding the meaning of “preordaining cause.” You appear to take it to mean that preordaining requires that every subsequent effect is “ordained” by the cause. This ain’t necessarily so.

God could, in fact, preordain the conditions which enable the capacity for free will and, therefore, would not have “preordained’” the outcomes of free will choices but merely the capacity of the cause (free will) to initiate its own novel causal chains. Free will, itself, could be underwritten by God as its “preordaining cause” but God would not necessarily have to “pre-ordain” the choices of such an agent with the capacity for making free will choices.

Likewise, since underwriting the capacity for free will in created agents with a capacity for free will would seem to require far and away more underwriting than merely preordaining complex secondary causal chains which fortuitously bring about coincidental outcomes, There is no need for God to “preordain” outcomes, merely to preordain the complex network of causal antecedents which then “unfold” and bring about relatively predictable or unpredictable effects.
Thomas doesn’t require God to intervene, since “‘If God foreknew that this would happen, it will happen.’ Wherefore Boethius, having said that the chain of fate is fickle, shortly afterwards adds—‘which, since it is derived from an unchangeable Providence must also itself be unchangeable.’”
I suspect you misunderstand the meaning of “unchangeable” by taking it to mean something like “static.” The risk is to reduce God to being merely a very complex originating cause which is self-limiting and determined rather than unchangeable because nothing can change him. God is omnipotent and unrestricted in what he can bring about – the meaning of omnipotent, I.e., not constrained and, therefore, “unchangeable” by any “outside” thing or agent.
Thomas’ argument doesn’t require require God to intervene, since “If God foreknew that this would happen, it will happen”. But nor does he rule out miracles. Thomas’ argument works even if God allows everything to evolve, or whatever else, since “If God foreknew that this would happen, it will happen”.

I’ve strong reservations about Thomism, but must admit that his argument on fate seems copper-bottomed bomb-proof.
Actually, merely preordaining a complex network of antecedent causes doesn’t require that God intervene after the fact. Neither does it require that he mustn’t interfere.

I’ve never found the argument that God’s omniscience and omnipotence means he had to set all of creation in motion from the beginning and could never interfere thereafter without threat to his reputation for perfection – THAT would be deism. This assumes that a plan/execution model for all of God’s creative efforts is the only one permitted to a three-omni-God, thus putting arbitrary restrictions on God.

Part of why it isn’t logically compelling is that it presumes God is in time and restricted to a sequential mode of creation by necessity. Why is improvisation necessarily an inferior means of creating as compared to crafting or assembling an artifact? I wouldn’t suppose it is for the same reason I don’t think a jazz piano or trumpet player who improvises as he plays is necessarily inferior to one who plays perfectly every note he has pre-written as notation on a page. Yet, the second seems to be the only kind of God you seem to find acceptable – one who “sticks to his script.”
 
The OP implies that God should have created a universe without flaws or at least with fewer than there are. That objection is worthless without evidence that there could be fewer. Suggesting piecemeal improvements doesn’t explain how they could be implemented without causing other problems. What is required is a detailed history
of a superior system which has the same advantages with fewer drawbacks. It is significant no one has ever even attempted, let alone achieved, such a feat. Only God is perfect in every respect and finite beings are always limited in some way or other.
 
It’s been pointed out to you on numerous occasions that the world was deemed perfect before the fall.

I guess all the flaws just popped into existence as soon as that Apple was eaten.
 
It’s been pointed out to you on numerous occasions that the world was deemed perfect before the fall.

I guess all the flaws just popped into existence as soon as that Apple was eaten.
I don’t think “perfect” is meant in the way you describe. Perhaps before science came along people took it to mean that the world was physically perfect. But that is not necessarily the intention of the author. There is also a moral and spiritual dimension to what is intended by the author and i think this is the main context of what is being said. The author may use the idea of a physically perfect universe as a metaphor, but that is just a metaphor. The eating of the apple is a metaphor, a literary device used to describe the fall of man, temptation, betrayal, the knowledge of sin and the transition in to these things from a spiritually perfect state of being. I don’t think genesis is intended to be at odds with a scientific account of the universe. I don’t think it is presenting a cosmology of creation in a literal historical sense. People for whatever reason have favored a literal reading of genesis.
 
It’s been pointed out to you on numerous occasions that the world was deemed perfect before the fall.

I guess all the flaws just popped into existence as soon as that Apple was eaten.
The Catechism points out the inevitable limitations of creatures right from the moment of Creation…
 
So evil is an illusion?
To repeat, Thomas says “Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works”.
Don’t you agree with St Thomas on this point and believe the laws of nature never lead to disease, disasters and deformities?
To repeat, I’m not making any argument, I’m simply quoting Thomas, and Thomas doesn’t imply that God never overrides laws of nature, it’s simply Thomas doesn’t need that for his argument to work.
Do you believe God determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment?
Rather than denying omniscience, Thomas says “We must remember that properly speaking ‘necessary’ and “contingent” are consequent upon being, as such. Hence the mode both of necessity and of contingency falls under the foresight of God, who provides universally for all being; not under the foresight of causes that provide only for some particular order of things.”
Is harm evil?
To repeat, Thomas says God permits these events in His providence since otherwise “much good would be absent from the universe”. He gives examples: “A lion would cease to live, if there were no slaying of animals; and there would be no patience of martyrs if there were no tyrannical persecution”. So, according to Thomas, harm occurs since the alternative would be that less good exists.
*Does God cause the sparrow to fall?
The problems exist in your interpretation of Providence in which God is directly responsible* for every single event in the universe including disasters and human atrocities, apparently determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment and ensures that all events have positive consequences even when they are harmful.
To repeat, I’m not making any argument, I’m simply quoting Thomas. He divides causes into primary (God) and secondary. Secondary causes (eventually) serve the primary cause, and include accidents of nature, both negative and positive, and human free will, both negative and positive.

Whereas your theory omits to even mention human free will, and sets up Chance with a capital C as a primary cause on the same level as Design with a capital D.

Sorry for lateness of reply, I’m very busy.
 
I suspect you are misunderstanding the meaning of “preordaining cause.” You appear to take it to mean that preordaining requires that every subsequent effect is “ordained” by the cause. This ain’t necessarily so.

God could, in fact, preordain the conditions which enable the capacity for free will and, therefore, would not have “preordained’” the outcomes of free will choices but merely the capacity of the cause (free will) to initiate its own novel causal chains. Free will, itself, could be underwritten by God as its “preordaining cause” but God would not necessarily have to “pre-ordain” the choices of such an agent with the capacity for making free will choices.

Likewise, since underwriting the capacity for free will in created agents with a capacity for free will would seem to require far and away more underwriting than merely preordaining complex secondary causal chains which fortuitously bring about coincidental outcomes, There is no need for God to “preordain” outcomes, merely to preordain the complex network of causal antecedents which then “unfold” and bring about relatively predictable or unpredictable effects.
Thomas doesn’t need to make a separate box for free-will in his argument here.

He divides causes into primary (God) and secondary (accidents of nature, and human free will). Primary causes are willed, secondary causes permitted, but always serve (eventually) the primary causes - “God’s immediate provision over everything does not exclude the action of secondary causes; which are the executors of His order, as was said above”.
*I suspect you misunderstand the meaning of “unchangeable” by taking it to mean something like “static.” The risk is to reduce God to being merely a very complex originating cause which is self-limiting and determined rather than unchangeable because nothing can change him. God is omnipotent and unrestricted in what he can bring about – the meaning of omnipotent, I.e., not constrained and, therefore, “unchangeable” by any “outside” thing or agent.
Actually, merely preordaining a complex network of antecedent causes doesn’t require that God intervene after the fact. Neither does it require that he mustn’t interfere.
I’ve never found the argument that God’s omniscience and omnipotence means he had to set all of creation in motion from the beginning and could never interfere thereafter without threat to his reputation for perfection – THAT would be deism. This assumes that a plan/execution model for all of God’s creative efforts is the only one permitted to a three-omni-God, thus putting arbitrary restrictions on God.
Part of why it isn’t logically compelling is that it presumes God is in time and restricted to a sequential mode of creation by necessity. Why is improvisation necessarily an inferior means of creating as compared to crafting or assembling an artifact? I wouldn’t suppose it is for the same reason I don’t think a jazz piano or trumpet player who improvises as he plays is necessarily inferior to one who plays perfectly every note he has pre-written as notation on a page. Yet, the second seems to be the only kind of God you seem to find acceptable – one who “sticks to his script.”*
Again, I’m just quoting Thomas, and he says “Now it has already been shown that both the substance of God and His knowledge are entirely unchangeable. Therefore His will must be entirely unchangeable.” - I-19-7

And in the same article, to point out the subtlety of what that means, he says “It does not follow from this argument that God has a will that changes, but that He sometimes wills that things should change.”
 
Salutations.
In Isaiah, near chapter 40, it reads, “I CREATED THE GOOD. I CREATED THE EVIL. I CREATED THE DARKNESS. I CREATED THE LIGHT.” But the fact that He created evil does not make God evil. If we only had sun, we wouldn’t appreciate it. We need rain to balance the world. Plants need rain and sunshine.
God does not do bad things. Satan is the enemy.Lucifer, was the highest angel and thought he could take over the job . Then, the battle happened
and banishment.
After Cain killed Able, God cursed him and placed mark on him. This happened to someone else in the Bible. Original sin brought consequences.
“THE SINS OF THE FATHER WILL BE PASSED ON TO HIS CHILDREN FOR FOUR GENERATIONS.”
GOD will allow us to follow oUr free will which a lot of disabilities and diseases come from.
That is my humble thought.
Lord, give us wisdom as we read your word. Let the Holy Spirit guide us to your love for us.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
 
Are you a Baptist practicing to become a Calvinist? 😃
In saying I’ve strong reservations about Thomism, I meant we have to decide whether theories are more important, or less important, than a relationship with Christ, since we can’t serve two masters. Perhaps that’s what Thomas meant with his “straw” comment.

I’ve heard there’s a strong charismatic wing in the Church which is Spirit-led rather than theory-led. But that requires emotion, which would seem contrary to Thomism as it leads to all kinds of excesses, such as something which I’m told is called fun - youtube.com/watch?v=e33zCUm1ZnY
 
In saying I’ve strong reservations about Thomism, I meant we have to decide whether theories are more important, or less important, than a relationship with Christ, since we can’t serve two masters. Perhaps that’s what Thomas meant with his “straw” comment.

I’ve heard there’s a strong charismatic wing in the Church which is Spirit-led rather than theory-led. But that requires emotion, which would seem contrary to Thomism as it leads to all kinds of excesses, such as something which I’m told is called fun - youtube.com/watch?v=e33zCUm1ZnY
 
To repeat, Thomas says “Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works”.

To repeat, I’m not making any argument, I’m simply quoting Thomas, and Thomas doesn’t imply that God never overrides laws of nature, it’s simply Thomas doesn’t need that for his argument to work.
Quote mining. It seems you only permit that when you do it. ;)😃
 
Salutations.
In Isaiah, near chapter 40, it reads, “I CREATED THE GOOD. I CREATED THE EVIL. I CREATED THE DARKNESS. I CREATED THE LIGHT.” But the fact that He created evil does not make God evil. If we only had sun, we wouldn’t appreciate it. We need rain to balance the world. Plants need rain and sunshine.
God does not do bad things. Satan is the enemy.Lucifer, was the highest angel and thought he could take over the job . Then, the battle happened
and banishment.
After Cain killed Able, God cursed him and placed mark on him. This happened to someone else in the Bible. Original sin brought consequences.
“THE SINS OF THE FATHER WILL BE PASSED ON TO HIS CHILDREN FOR FOUR GENERATIONS.”
GOD will allow us to follow oUr free will which a lot of disabilities and diseases come from.
That is my humble thought.
Lord, give us wisdom as we read your word. Let the Holy Spirit guide us to your love for us.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
You are right in quoting Isaiah, Alice, because God is the Ultimate Cause of everything but He was not certainly not the** direct **cause of natural evil. St Thomas pointed out that it is incidental, i.e. “happening or likely to happen in an unplanned or subordinate conjunction with something else”. In such an immensely complex universe with countless creatures and countless events occurring at every moment many mishaps and misfortunes are inevitable. We can’t have everything for nothing!
Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage… 🙂
 
Thomas argues “We must therefore say that what happens here by accident, both in natural things and in human affairs, is reduced to a preordaining cause, which is Divine Providence.”
Immanuel Kant, Philosopher

“God put a secret art into the forces of Nature so as to enable it to fashion itself out of chaos into a perfect world system.”
 
So evil is an illusion?
Evil doesn’t exist but it is real nevertheless! That is where negativity comes in…
Don’t you agree with St Thomas on this point and believe the laws of nature never lead to disease, disasters and deformities?
To repeat, I’m not making any argument, I’m simply quoting Thomas, and Thomas doesn’t imply that God never overrides laws of nature, it’s simply Thomas doesn’t need that for his argument to work.

As I pointed out in my post to tweedlealice St Thomas believed natural evil is incidental.
Do you believe God determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment?
Rather than denying omniscience, Thomas says “We must remember that properly speaking ‘necessary’ and “contingent” are consequent upon being, as such. Hence the mode both of necessity and of contingency falls under the foresight of God, who provides universally for all being; not under the foresight of causes that provide only for some particular order of things.”

In other words God permits rather than causes evil. It is an unwanted side effect.
Is harm evil?
To repeat, Thomas says God permits these events in His providence since otherwise “much good would be absent from the universe”. He gives examples: “A lion would cease to live, if there were no slaying of animals; and there would be no patience of martyrs if there were no tyrannical persecution”. So, according to Thomas, harm occurs since the alternative would be that less good exists.
Then we agree!
Does God cause the sparrow to fall?
The problems exist in your interpretation of Providence in which God is directly responsible
  • for every single event in the universe including disasters and human atrocities, apparently determines precisely where everyone is located at every moment and ensures that all events have positive consequences even when they are harmful.
    To repeat, I’m not making any argument, I’m simply quoting Thomas. He divides causes into primary (God) and secondary. Secondary causes (eventually) serve the primary cause, and include accidents of nature, both negative and positive, and human free will, both negative and positive.
Whereas your theory omits to even mention human free will, and sets up Chance with a capital C as a primary cause on the same level as Design with a capital D.

Free will doesn’t come into the picture of natural evil. Evil is subordinate to goodness. That is why I always put the + first because it has precedence over the - 😉
Sorry for lateness of reply, I’m very busy.
Don’t worry. In philosophy time is irrelevant. 🙂
 
Quote mining. It seems you only permit that when you do it. ;)😃
That’s uncivil, I’ve linked to the arguments he uses and no one, including you, has said any of the quotes are out of context.

And for those who don’t know, you currently have a thread where you’ve quoted around 400 people, none of them in any context whatsoever, and without even citing references, so for all anyone knows you’ve not bothered to check provenance and just took them from dodgy websites.

Did you know that “practice what you preach” comes from Jesus’ warning against hypocrisy in Matt 23?
 
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