How can we reconcile the argument of intelligent design with supposed design flaws?

[inocente]

Evil doesn’t exist but it is real nevertheless! That is where negativity comes in…

As I pointed out in my post to tweedlealice St Thomas believed natural evil is incidental.

In other words God permits rather than causes evil. It is an unwanted side effect.

Then we agree!

Free will doesn’t come into the picture of natural evil. Evil is subordinate to goodness. That is why I always put the + first because it has precedence over the -

It would seem straight forward that Thomas introduces the concept of secondary causes (natural and human free-will) in order to be able to argue that some things are only permitted, but not directly willed by God. But to repeat, Thomas includes both luck and misfortune in his secondary causes, while your formula only includes misfortune, and Thomas includes both natural and human free will, while your formula never mentions free will.

Your formula again:

**Positive **aspects of reality like the beauty of a butterfly and the harmony in nature are designed.

**Negative **aspects like disease and disasters are caused by unfortunate coincidences like exposure to radiation or being in an earthquake zone.

So according to your formula, good luck is Positive and therefore designed, but that contradicts common sense and your Chance with a capital C. And you never mention human free will. Whereas Thomas has one, inclusive, consistent argument.

You also call Negative things “unwanted side effects” due to “unfortunate coincidences”, which places them outside of divine provenance, and here you’re arguing against Thomas and Augustine, who say they are necessary to ultimately produce more good - “Thus Augustine says (Enchiridion 2): ‘Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works, unless He were so almighty and so good as to produce good even from evil.’ It would appear that it was on account of these two arguments to which we have just replied, that some were persuaded to consider corruptible things—e.g. casual and evil things—as removed from the care of divine providence.” - ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FP/FP022.html#FPQ22A2THEP1

Don’t worry. In philosophy time is irrelevant.

True, but I’m going to be very busy for the next few weeks and may not be posting, but I think we’re now repeating old ground anyway .

 

[IWantGod]

It would seem straight forward that Thomas introduces the concept of secondary causes (natural and human free-will) in order to be able to argue that some things are only permitted, but not directly willed by God. But to repeat, Thomas includes both luck and misfortune in his secondary causes, while your formula only includes misfortune, and Thomas includes both natural and human free will, while your formula never mentions free will.

.

God clearly allows natural events, corruption, and undesirable things to exist. Beyond creating the laws of physics and sustaining physical reality in being i don’t think God is “designing” anything in the same sense of as a “watch-maker”, or rather I’m not sure that it is reasonable to think so in regards to the universe. This much i agree with. The universe is like a blind watchmaker it seems.

 

[Aloysium]

God clearly allows natural events, corruption, and undesirable things to exist. Beyond creating the laws of physics and sustaining physical reality in being i don’t think God is “designing” anything, or rather I’m not sure that it is reasonable to think so. This much i agree with. The universe is like a blind watchmaker it seems.

All this beauty and a blind watchmaker, go figure.

 

[tonyrey]

God clearly allows natural events, corruption, and undesirable things to exist. Beyond creating the laws of physics and sustaining physical reality in being i don’t think God is “designing” anything, or rather I’m not sure that it is reasonable to think so. This much i agree with. The universe is like a blind watchmaker it seems.

Does the framework of order with its natural laws seem like the product of a blind watchmaker? Or the existence of rational beings who think the universe exists for no reason or purpose?

 

[tonyrey]

All this beauty and a blind watchmaker, go figure.

In addition to the reality of truth, goodness, freedom, justice and love!

 

[IWantGod]

All this beauty and a blind watchmaker, go figure.

I don’t know. I’m speaking about the universe and how it behaves. The universe appears to evolve and act according to its own nature. The actual source of “beauty” is beside the point.
I would say that beauty is not quantifiable.

 

[IWantGod]

Does the framework of order with its natural laws seem like the product of a blind watchmaker? Or the existence of rational beings who think the universe exists for no reason or purpose?

I agree that God created physical reality and sustains its activity in being. It does exist for a purpose. I don’t think intellect and its actuality can be reduced to physicality although they certainly work in conjunction with each-other.

However, how the universe constructs itself out of its own nature is consistent with the concept of a blind watchmaker.

 

[Aloysium]

I don’t know. I’m speaking about the universe and how it behaves. The universe appears to evolve and act according to its own nature. The actual source of “beauty” is beside the point.

Appears is the correct word to use since what you state is an interpretation.
What you are expressing is a belief, which I do not share.
Clearly to me God is involved as Father in every moment of our existence.
He maintains the order of the universe, giving it being as He did the first instances of creation.
The Source of the beauty is the point; and in creation we see revealed through its presence and more so in its perceived absence, the signature of the Creator.

 

[tonyrey]

Evil doesn’t exist but it is real nevertheless! That is where negativity comes in…

As I pointed out in my post to tweedlealice St Thomas believed natural evil is incidental.

In other words God permits rather than causes evil. It is an unwanted side effect.

Then we agree!

Free will doesn’t come into the picture of natural evil. Evil is subordinate to goodness. That is why I always put the + first because it has precedence over the -

The topic is supposed design flaws" in the universe.

You also call Negative things “unwanted side effects” due to “unfortunate coincidences”, which places them outside of divine provenance, and here you’re arguing against Thomas and Augustine, who say they are necessary to ultimately produce more good - “Thus Augustine says (Enchiridion 2): ‘Almighty God would in no wise permit evil to exist in His works, unless He were so almighty and so good as to produce good even from evil.’ It would appear that it was on account of these two arguments to which we have just replied, that some were persuaded to consider corruptible things—e.g. casual and evil things—as removed from the care of divine providence.” - ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/…l#FPQ22A2THEP1

“unfortunate coincidences” occur within God’s all-embracing plan and presuppose the existence of** positive **natural laws. They are secondary, **negative **features of the framework of order.

Don’t worry. In philosophy time is irrelevant.

True, but I’m going to be very busy for the next few weeks and may not be posting, but I think we’re now repeating old ground anyway.

As far as I’m concerned there is nothing further to discuss! I wish you success with your ventures - without any misfortunes…

 

[IWantGod]

Appears is the correct word to use since what you state is an interpretation.
What you are expressing is a belief, which I do not share.

If you agree with the existence of secondary causality then you have to agree with me and the natural sciences. I don’t really have a choice.

Clearly to me God is involved as Father in every moment of our existence.

God is sustaining in existence the natural and physical activity of the universe at every moment of its being.

He maintains the order of the universe, giving it being as He did the first instances of creation.

God created physical nature and its laws of behavior and he sustains its activity in existence.

The Source of the beauty is the point; and in creation we see revealed through its presence and more so in its perceived absence, the signature of the Creator.

I agree that we can see a sign of our creator through the presence of things like beauty because it holds meaning. But its also true that the universe is like a blind watchmaker because it evolves according to its nature, it is a continuous physical expression of natural events sustained in being by the supernatural power of God.

This is a question of what it means for God to create our universe, it is not a question of whether or not there is a God.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

thecollegefix.com/post/27448/

 

[Aloysium]

I believe that everything comes into existence through the Word of God.

The Eucharist is the body and blood of our Lord because He made it so.

Everything exists to the most minute of particle/waves/whatever that interact as themselves and as parts of greater wholes. God is in everything determining its particular characteristics. And, each being behaves as it has been made because it is permitted to do so, in accordance with its God given nature. God is the Source of its being through the vagaries of time, as they may coincide with our presence in the moment, becoming a part of our experience, and ultimately as parts of His grand vision in His eternal now.

There is no blind watchmaker, nature is not running separately from He who designs it outside of time.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, in order to have an earth the four fundamental forces must be in effect and run as they do as God wills them to. Should He choose to do so, He can alter their behaviour in any particular instant because He is their ultimate cause.

It is unclear how often He directs occurrences against their otherwise natural end because there is too much noise in the system; i.e.: things do just happen and are frequently attributed to random luck and there being too many variables to sort out.

:twocents:

 

[IWantGod]

I believe that everything comes into existence through the Word of God.

The Eucharist is the body and blood of our Lord because He made it so.

Everything exists to the most minute of particle/waves/whatever that interact as themselves and as parts of greater wholes. God is in everything determining its particular characteristics. And, each being behaves as it has been made because it is permitted to do so, in accordance with its God given nature. God is the Source of its being through the vagaries of time, as they may coincide with our presence in the moment, becoming a part of our experience, and ultimately as parts of His grand vision in His eternal now.

There is no blind watchmaker, nature is not running separately from He who designs it outside of time.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, in order to have an earth the four fundamental forces must be in effect and run as they do as God wills them to. Should He choose to do so, He can alter their behaviour in any particular instant because He is their ultimate cause.

It is unclear how often He directs occurrences against their otherwise natural end because there is too much noise in the system; i.e.: things do just happen and are frequently attributed to random luck and there being too many variables to sort out.

:twocents:

I never said that the blind watchmaker exists without the power of God.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree that God created physical reality and sustains its activity in being. It does exist for a purpose. I don’t think intellect and its actuality can be reduced to physicality although they certainly work in conjunction with each-other.

However, how the universe constructs itself out of its own nature is consistent with the concept of a blind watchmaker.

What do you believe is the purpose of physical reality? How is it related to intellectual activity? Does God have any control over events on this planet?

 

[Aloysium]

Nature is indifferent to our existence.
It rains on all of us.
Waves roll in and out, relentless.
A god who is nature or the converse, completely transcendent, is a cruel god.
Suffering, as has been revealed, is the outcome of our damaged relationship with God.
But, in Jesus Christ, we find God not only walking with us in our trials, but as the Way to ultimate life and joy.
In Jesus, God reveals that He rules all creation.
Nature behaves as it does in accordance with His will that His creature, we as persons in time and space, transform ourselves into love.
Therein lies the perfection.

 

[IWantGod]

What do you believe is the purpose of physical reality? How is it related to intellectual activity? Does God have any control over events on this planet?

Well God is the very being in which creation moves and has its actuality, so i would say that God has absolute power over everything. It is also evident that the universe is a sequence of secondary natural causes. Intellectual activity has come into being at some point in this sequence. Its clear, or i should say obvious, that intellectual activity is something different to natural causes.

Of course the universe is in fact an artificial being (its an artifact), and we are artificial intelligences (we are artifacts), since God is the only “natural being” and this is to say that God naturally exists.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Well God is the very being in which creation moves and has its actuality, so i would say that God has absolute power over everything. It is also evident that the universe is a sequence of secondary natural causes. Intellectual activity has come into being at some point in this sequence. Its clear, or i should say obvious, that intellectual activity is something different to natural causes.

Of course the universe is in fact an artificial being (its an artifact), and we are artificial intelligences (we are artifacts), since God is the only “natural being” and this is to say that God naturally exists.

I read you to mean that God exists or has existence of his very nature, whereas we do not. In that sense, God “naturally” exists, but human beings are “artifacts” of that naturally existing Being.

The question then becomes, “What is that nature of He who exists naturally?” Unlike the “naturalists” who claim matter is that which just exists “naturally,” a theist would claim that matter in and of itself is incapable of bringing about complex higher realities such as intention, intellection, volition, and final causation, generally.

 

[IWantGod]

In Jesus, God reveals that He rules all creation.
Nature behaves as it does in accordance with His will that His creature, we as persons in time and space, transform ourselves into love.
Therein lies the perfection.

I have not denied this. I said the universe is a blind watchmaker. It didn’t just come into existence with all its potency fully actualized. “Physical reality” has naturally evolved into what it is according to its nature and at the same time God is actualizing and sustaining its potency.

 

[IWantGod]

I read you to mean that God exists or has existence of his very nature, whereas we do not. In that sense, God “naturally” exists, but human beings are “artifacts” of that naturally existing Being.

Yes.

a theist would claim that matter in and of itself is incapable of bringing about complex higher realities such as intention, intellection, volition, and final causation, generally.

Physical reality cannot actualize itself, and neither can it create intellect or intention. I am not convinced in anyway shape or form that intellect or intention is a physical process, especially intention since there is no reason to think that a natural physical process would intend anything since nature is naturally acting toward an end whereas intention is acting toward knowledge of an end. It makes rational sense to think that an intellect is the first cause of intellects.

Of course, this is not a fully fledged argument, i am simply stating my philosophical position on the matter.

 

[tonyrey]

I have not denied this. I said the universe is a blind watchmaker. It didn’t just come into existence with all its potency fully actualized. “Physical reality” has naturally evolved into what it is according to its nature and at the same time God is actualizing and sustaining its potency.

Don’t you believe God ever intervenes to prevent the worst disasters? If not Providence and answers to prayer are ruled out…