How can we reconcile the argument of intelligent design with supposed design flaws?

[magnet]

You still have it the wrong way around. The environment isn’t suitable for us…we have evolved to suit the environment.

One also should include climate change and predation. The dodo bird was not pre-adapted to heavy predation. When humans showed up on their island, they suddenly were subjected to levels of predation they could not avoid.

The same was occurring among the bisons in North America and almost succeeded.

Dinosaurs died out supposedly because of catastrophic events and to increasingly arid climate. Mammals were already plentiful. So when dinosaurs disappeared, mammal populations dramatically increased.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You still have it the wrong way around. The environment isn’t suitable for us…we have evolved to suit the environment.

The environment had to be friendly (suitable) for life, or life would not have begun.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

What atheists never deal with is any explanation for why Reason itself is a part of our human nature. A well designed creature would be designed to reason toward the truth in the best possible circumstances. But if we were not intelligently designed, why should Reason even exist? Every other species gets along just fine without it. Man alone has it, and has the capacity to reason about himself that he is in the extraordinary position of being able to think, whereas “thought” itself cannot be shown to exist anywhere else in the universe. What indeed would have been the purpose of creating an entire universe if part of the design of that universe was to produce a creature in the universe who could wonder at the vast and awesome work of the Creator?

 

[magnet]

What atheists never deal with is any explanation for why Reason itself is a part of our human nature. A well designed creature would be designed to reason toward the truth in the best possible circumstances. But if we were not intelligently designed, why should Reason even exist? Every other species gets along just fine without it. Man alone has it, and has the capacity to reason about himself that he is in the extraordinary position of being able to think, whereas “thought” itself cannot be shown to exist anywhere else in the universe. What indeed would have been the purpose of creating an entire universe if part of the design of that universe was to produce a creature in the universe who could wonder at the vast and awesome work of the Creator?

There are other creatures besides humans that use Reason. Chimpanzees, octopi, ravens, have all demonstrated reasoning powers. It can also be claimed that there is reasoning power in some large predators such as wolves, coyotes, bears, lions, owls, and eagles, as well as elephants, beavers, badgers, and wolverines.

 

[inocente]

Indeed, the environment of the universe as a whole is that it is suited to the development of life. It might very well not have been, and all the more likely so if hydrogen had not from the start to be the dominant element throughout the universe.

There’s no mystery about hydrogen, there’s more of it simply because it’s the simplest element.

Your first sentence is obviously badly wrong, as the vast majority of the universe is either far too cold or far too hot for liquid water. And by arguing that the universe as a whole is suited to life, which it obviously isn’t, you drove a coach and horses through the design argument that life is so unlikely it couldn’t have developed without help.

 

[inocente]

There are other creatures besides humans that use Reason. Chimpanzees, octopi, ravens, have all demonstrated reasoning powers. It can also be claimed that there is reasoning power in some large predators such as wolves, coyotes, bears, lions, owls, and eagles, as well as elephants, beavers, badgers, and wolverines.

Yes. Crows have demonstrated the reasoning powers of seven-year-old children. The small size of a crow’s brain, which also provides complex flight and navigation skills, indicates there’s nothing supernatural needed to evolve the power to reason.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes. Crows have demonstrated the reasoning powers of seven-year-old children. The small size of a crow’s brain, which also provides complex flight and navigation skills, indicates there’s nothing supernatural needed to evolve the power to reason.

Size and quantity are only significant for materialists who think everything is reducible to atomic particles…

 

[tonyrey]

There are other creatures besides humans that use Reason. Chimpanzees, octopi, ravens, have all demonstrated reasoning powers. It can also be claimed that there is reasoning power in some large predators such as wolves, coyotes, bears, lions, owls, and eagles, as well as elephants, beavers, badgers, and wolverines.

Intelligence is not synonymous with the power of abstract reasoning.

 

[tonyrey]

There’s no mystery about hydrogen, there’s more of it simply because it’s the simplest element.

Is there any reason why elements exist?

Your first sentence is obviously badly wrong, as the vast majority of the universe is either far too cold or far too hot for liquid water. And by arguing that the universe as a whole is suited to life, which it obviously isn’t, you drove a coach and horses through the design argument that life is so unlikely it couldn’t have developed without help.

This universe is only one of countless possible universes…

 

[tonyrey]

What atheists never deal with is any explanation for why Reason itself is a part of our human nature. A well designed creature would be designed to reason toward the truth in the best possible circumstances. But if we were not intelligently designed, why should Reason even exist? Every other species gets along just fine without it. Man alone has it, and has the capacity to reason about himself that he is in the extraordinary position of being able to think, whereas “thought” itself cannot be shown to exist anywhere else in the universe. What indeed would have been the purpose of creating an entire universe if part of the design of that universe was to produce a creature in the universe who could wonder at the vast and awesome work of the Creator?

Those who belittle the power of reason are using it to do so!

 

[tonyrey]

A more fundamental issue is the suitability of the environment for which Chance is a hopelessly inadequate explanation…

You are assuming the environment had to be suitable for life to emerge - and chaos preceded order…

 

[tonyrey]

One also should include climate change and predation. The dodo bird was not pre-adapted to heavy predation. When humans showed up on their island, they suddenly were subjected to levels of predation they could not avoid.

The same was occurring among the bisons in North America and almost succeeded.

Dinosaurs died out supposedly because of catastrophic events and to increasingly arid climate. Mammals were already plentiful. So when dinosaurs disappeared, mammal populations dramatically increased.

You need to explain:

1. The existence of matter
2. The urge to survive
3. The increase in complexity

 

[inocente]

Size and quantity are only significant for materialists who think everything is reducible to atomic particles…

False, or are you’re calling Jesus a materialist for saying “You of little faith”?

Intelligence is not synonymous with the power of abstract reasoning.

No one mentioned intelligence, the discussion is about “why Reason itself is a part of our human nature”. (And Charles, spuriously capitalizing words such as reason isn’t part of our human nature).

Is there any reason why elements exist?

There are various reasons, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element

This universe is only one of countless possible universes…

That’s got nothing to do with the argument, which was “the environment of the universe as a whole is that it is suited to the development of life”, which is obviously wrong as the vast majority of the universe is either far too cold or far too hot for liquid water to form.

Those who belittle the power of reason are using it to do so!

No one belittled the power of reason, we simply said that the power of reason can be explained without appealing to the supernatural or mysticism.

And that’s highly Christian, for Paul sees God not in what we don’t know but in what we know and understand: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” - Romans 1

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There’s no mystery about hydrogen, there’s more of it simply because it’s the simplest element.

Your first sentence is obviously badly wrong, as the vast majority of the universe is either far too cold or far too hot for liquid water. And by arguing that the universe as a whole is suited to life, which it obviously isn’t, you drove a coach and horses through the design argument that life is so unlikely it couldn’t have developed without help.

Silly-putty logic.

There had better be plenty of hydrogen in the universe if you are going to have life at all.

That’s a good and intelligent plan for life anywhere in the universe. But the fact that hydrogen is the dominant element has to be explained by the creator God who arranged that, and I assume you believe the creator God did arrange that.

Or do you think the entire universe is just a ****-shoot?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No one mentioned intelligence, the discussion is about “why Reason itself is a part of our human nature”. (And Charles, spuriously capitalizing words such as reason isn’t part of our human nature).

It certainly is part of our human nature. It is certainly not part of the nature of other animals to be curious about how the universe was formed, and how life even came to exist, or even whether the arrangement of atoms throughout the universe is part of God’s master plan.

You do believe in God’s master plan, don’t you?

Or do you believe that when God created hydrogen as the dominant element in the universe he was clueless as to how it would be used in creating the essential requirement for all life … water?

 

[tonyrey]

Size and quantity are only significant for materialists who think everything is reducible to atomic particles…

How is Jesus related to the topic of materialism?

Intelligence is not synonymous with the power of abstract reasoning.

No one mentioned intelligence, the discussion is about “why Reason itself is a part of our human nature”. (And Charles, spuriously capitalizing words such as reason isn’t part of our human nature).

It is implied in “Crows have demonstrated the reasoning powers of seven-year-old children.” Crows are obviously intelligent but there is no evidence that they have rational insight and understanding of abstract concepts.

Is there any reason why elements exist?

There are various reasons, see [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_element)s

There is a difference between a reason and a cause.

The environment of the universe as a whole is that it is suited to the development of life", which is obviously wrong as the vast majority of the universe is either far too cold or far too hot for liquid water to form.

The fundamental laws of nature are essential for the development of life.

Those who belittle the power of reason are using it to do so!

No one belittled the power of reason, we simply said that the power of reason can be explained without appealing to the supernatural or mysticism.

To reduce the power of reason to intelligence comparable to that of a crow fails to take into account the Christian belief that we are make in God’s image and likeness with moral insight and the capacity for love.

And that’s highly Christian, for Paul sees God not in what we don’t know but in what we know and understand: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” - Romans 1

Unlike crows and other intelligent animals…

BTW This universe is only one of countless possible universes. For the non-believer there is no obvious reason why it need exist. Physical necessity is an inadequate explanation.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

BTW This universe is only one of countless possible universes. For the non-believer there is no obvious reason why it need exist. Physical necessity is an inadequate explanation.

There are countless other possible universes, but neither scripture nor science have demonstrated that any other possible universe exists.

We know of one universe that necessarily exists, and needs a necessary cause that planned its existence for the purpose of supporting life as we know it.

Susumu Ohno, Geneticist:

"Did the genome of our cave-dwelling predecessors contain a set or sets of genes which enable modern man to compose music of infinite complexity and write novels with profound meaning? …It looks as though the early Homo was already provided with the intellectual potential which was in great excess of what was needed to cope with the environment of his time.”

The arrival of Reason instructs us that God planned the existence a creature who could fathom his very existence and begin a personal relationship with him.

 

[tonyrey]

There are countless other possible universes, but neither scripture nor science have demonstrated that any other possible universe exists.

We know of one universe that necessarily exists, and needs a necessary cause that planned its existence for the purpose of supporting life as we know it.

Susumu Ohno, Geneticist:

"Did the genome of our cave-dwelling predecessors contain a set or sets of genes which enable modern man to compose music of infinite complexity and write novels with profound meaning? …It looks as though the early Homo was already provided with the intellectual potential which was in great excess of what was needed to cope with the environment of his time.”

The arrival of Reason instructs us that God planned the existence a creature who could fathom his very existence and begin a personal relationship with him.

Pascal was a great mathematician but also a great philosopher who summed up our status in the universe in one sentence:

346 Thought constitutes the greatness of man.

Pensees

He goes on to say:

347 Man is but a reed, the most feeble thing in nature, but he is a thinking reed. The entire universe need not arm itself to crush him. A vapour, a drop of water suffices to kill him. But, if the universe were to crush him, man would still be more noble than that which killed him, because he knows that he dies and the advantage which the universe has over him; the universe knows nothing of this.

ibid

It follows that scepticism is not only self-contradictory but self-destructive. Those who belittle reason belittle their own conclusions…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It follows that scepticism is not only self-contradictory but self-destructive. Those who belittle reason belittle their own conclusions…

Not that reason is infallible, but without the belief in Reason as a special human quality we cannot even believe in truth. All other creatures are earthbound. Only man can reach for the stars. Those who believe in God know that God would not create a universe without designing for this universe one who is worthy to comprehend his Creation. Or else what would be the point of Creation?

Chance may well exist, but leaving everything to blind chance cannot have been the point of Creation.

 

[DCNBILL]

That’s got nothing to do with the argument, which was “the environment of the universe as a whole is that it is suited to the development of life”, which is obviously wrong as the vast majority of the universe is either far too cold or far too hot for liquid water to form.

Note that you are assuming that water is necessary for life. Non carbon based life is possible and would not need water to survive.