How can you associate with the Church if you don't agree completely

[illmatic]

I was speaking to a friend about being Christian and the homosexuality issue came up. I admitted that I personally don’t agree with the Church teaching on it or, rather, that I think the application of Church teaching is wrong (my understanding of the Church’s teaching is that it starts from the premise that people are not defined by sexuality. I don’t understand how that, and the application of Christ’s message of unconditional love can extend to the current teaching that same-sex marriages are wrong, and the encouragement of laypersons to vote etc. accordingly).
I feel like I have done this issue to death recently and made little or not progress, so I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a debate about homosexuality - could you make a new thread or PM me or something if you want to speak about it. I’m not opposed to chatting about it, but I was hoping this thread could discuss another issue, which this is the background to.

My friend asked me how I could associate myself with the Church if I thought that teaching was wrong because I was quite literally supporting the cause through my support of the Church. I’ve been thinking about it a lot.
I do believe that this is the one true Church passed on by Christ and I feel that I am closer to God now that I’ve ever been and leaving isn’t even almost an option. I’m not sure how to justify my indirect support of what I don’t agree with through supporting the Church.

I’d love to hear some thoughts.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I was speaking to a friend about being Christian and the homosexuality issue came up. I admitted that I personally don’t agree with the Church teaching on it or, rather, that I think the application of Church teaching is wrong (my understanding of the Church’s teaching is that it starts from the premise that people are not defined by sexuality. I don’t understand how that, and the application of Christ’s message of unconditional love can extend to the current teaching that same-sex marriages are wrong, and the encouragement of laypersons to vote etc. accordingly).
I feel like I have done this issue to death recently and made little or not progress, so I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a debate about homosexuality - could you make a new thread or PM me or something if you want to speak about it. I’m not opposed to chatting about it, but I was hoping this thread could discuss another issue, which this is the background to.

My friend asked me how I could associate myself with the Church if I thought that teaching was wrong because I was quite literally supporting the cause through my support of the Church. I’ve been thinking about it a lot.
I do believe that this is the one true Church passed on by Christ and I feel that I am closer to God now that I’ve ever been and leaving isn’t even almost an option. I’m not sure how to justify my indirect support of what I don’t agree with through supporting the Church.

I’d love to hear some thoughts.
Thanks in advance.

Well if Christ could establish a Church, as you agree that He did, he could establish Sacraments for that Church to administer, one of which is Matrimony.

And He could establish valid matter for Matrimony to be a man and a woman. Which He did. Do you disagree?

 

[Linda_Marie]

God called me to the Church 33 years ago. I observed no religion and considered myself agnostic if asked. Effectively, He whacked me upside the head with a spiritual 2x4. I was overcome with the desire to be baptised so the question became which church. My dad was an ex-Catholic and my mom was a Baptist so you can be sure I did not receive a pro-Catholic upbringing.

I grew up in the Middle East. I know the history. I know that the Catholic Church was the first Christian church. I looked at the plethora of non-Catholic Christian churches and decided that it was way too much work to figure out what the difference was between the First Church of Christ and the Seventh Church of Christ, much less all the rest. In fact, the sheer number of those churches testified against them.

It was not a matter of finding a church which adhered to what I believed. Rather, it was I who had to conform to the Teachings. I had to change to become Christian.

Jesus founded the Catholic Church on Peter. There is an unbroken line of Popes directly from Peter, even if we weren’t calling them Popes. If we want to follow Christ, we must renounce ourselves. Placing our own beliefs over the Teachings of the Church is prideful and arrogant, assuming that “I” know best.

If I come across a Teaching with which I disagree, I must assume that I am wrong and learn why the Church teaches as She does. I never assume that I am right and that the Church must change.

Each person is individually and lovingly created by God. He gives us free will to conform ourselves to His Teachings. Those who choose to be homosexual (meaning those living an active homosexual lifestyle) reject God’s Teachings. If they wish to be members of His Church, it is they who must change, not the Church.

God loves them, He doesn’t love what they do. When people know that God teaches that a certain act is an abomination before Him and they continue anyway, they definitively reject God.

God hates sin and and has made clear to us that acting on homosexual desires is a mortal sin ie: it results in permanent separation from God. What do they want? Eternal life with God or just this one with their myriad lovers?

 

[The_Reginator]

How can you associate with the Church if you don’t agree completely?
It is called OBEDIENCE.
It is the opposite of pride. When God calls us to the Church (as He called me) we have to accept the teachings of the Church as She gives us the teachings of God. I am not about to argue with God. I’ll loose. Badly
(I had trouble with a number of dogmas, but I ended up putting God first and my own ideas last.)

It was not a matter of finding a church which adhered to what I believed. Rather,** it was I who had to conform to the Teachings. I had to change to become Christian**.

Jesus founded the Catholic Church on Peter. There is an unbroken line of Popes directly from Peter, even if we weren’t calling them Popes. If we want to follow Christ, we must renounce ourselves. Placing our own beliefs over the Teachings of the Church is prideful and arrogant, assuming that “I” know best.

**If I come across a Teaching with which I disagree, I must assume that I am wrong and learn why the Church teaches as She does. I never assume that I am right and that the Church must change.
**
***Each person is individually and lovingly created by God. He gives us free will to conform ourselves to His Teachings.

---

 

[Julian0404]

I was speaking to a friend about being Christian and the homosexuality issue came up. I admitted that I personally don’t agree with the Church teaching on it or, rather, that I think the application of Church teaching is wrong (my understanding of the Church’s teaching is that it starts from the premise that people are not defined by sexuality. I don’t understand how that, and the application of Christ’s message of unconditional love can extend to the current teaching that same-sex marriages are wrong,

The relationship between same sex partners is disordered in accordance to the design which GOD has created for procreation, “if” they engage in sexual relations. “If” they live as platonic family members, never engaging in a disordered sexual relation, they have not offended GOD. Your misunderstanding, I assume, is rising from your view that all people are created by GOD as equal and therefore the Chuch which GOD created should love them. And it does love them and all of GOD’s creation, for everything that GOD made is good. However, with our free will, we can choose to go against GOD’s design of “good” and perform acts that are sins against GOD, one of which is the sexual acts of same sex partners. So, yes the Church loves them, but no the Church cannot accept a sinful behavior.
Therefore, it appears that your confusion lies in not being able to wrap your mind around the Church accepting their souls as “good”, but their behavior as “bad” And that in turns requires you to refresh your knowledge on the concept of “sin” as found in the Catechism.

and the encouragement of laypersons to vote etc. accordingly).
I feel like I have done this issue to death recently and made little or not progress, so I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a debate about homosexuality - could you make a new thread or PM me or something if you want to speak about it. I’m not opposed to chatting about it, but I was hoping this thread could discuss another issue, which this is the background to.

My friend asked me how I could associate myself with the Church if I thought that teaching was wrong because I was quite literally supporting the cause through my support of the Church. I’ve been thinking about it a lot.
I do believe that this is the one true Church passed on by Christ and I feel that I am closer to God now that I’ve ever been and leaving isn’t even almost an option. I’m not sure how to justify my indirect support of what I don’t agree with through supporting the Church.

**You should never violate your conscience. If you cannot truly come to an understanding of how sin can be disordered, but yet we can still love and seek the salvation of the sinner, then let your conscience be your guide. However, I would suggest that as you are feeling closer to GOD than you have ever been before, that you take the time to read the four Gospels and specifically look for the interaction of JESUS with sinners. Did HE heal them? After being healed, how did they treat JESUS? What admontition did HE give to them after healing them? What did HE say about sinners, did HE say HE came for them or not? If HE said HE came for them, and HE healed them, then was their actions and behavior in need of healing? **

I’d love to hear some thoughts.
Thanks in advance.

 

[CMatt25]

Hello Illmatic,

First of all the Church of course still considers you a Catholic so don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. I believe you are asking what do we do once we immerse ourselves in prayer, instruct and inform our consciences as to Church teaching, and yet still after all of that, in good conscience we disagree.

CCC 1776 Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, **ever calling him to love **and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . **His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God **whose voice echoes in his depths.

CCC 1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

CCC 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

I hope this helps. May you continue to walk with Him in love and The Golden Rule. God bless you my Catholic brother in Christ. Peace be with you always.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Linda Marie really hit the nail on the head and there’s not much more to add to that save a personal testimony.

I have been where you are in one sense, illmatic. I have many gay and lesbian friends. They are fun witty warm and loving people. How could I call them sinners??? For years now I have taken the approach Lisa Marie suggests: a lot of very faithful very loving and very holy people have mulled this issue for thousands of years; I must be missing something, right?

Turns out I was.

Now that I am in a loving monogamous relationship with a loving, patient husband, God has shown me how sex does not exclude God in any way if it is to His design. This is weird to talk about and almost impossible to describe. Sorry.

Suffice it to say, it is 100% wrong to say that the Church excludes homosexuals, she merely points out the fact that reaching for fleshly pleasure in spite of God ***does ***come between us and God. That ***includes ***all those *heterosexual *couples copulating out of wedlock/ using birth control, etc. Of course the media distorts and twists everything the Church does so I guess it should be no surprise that this is the case here as well.

The point is, this is not and should never be about homosexuals themselves, it’s about being fleshly minded vs. Godly minded. catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=2621 Granted, I cringe at the Catechism’s choice of words, but DO see the nugget of truth in them.

Nonetheless, I think most people belong to one organization or another that they don’t fully agree with. **We aren’t necessarily *supporting ***any of said organizations; we’re merely admitting that there isn’t anything better. Your friend isn’t looking for truth, he’s looking to separate you from it with such an accusation, it would seem. 'Nuff said?

Pray on it. Trust God. Give His Church a little benefit of the doubt; and continue to love your friends. And pray for the ignorant that get the “sin” confused with the “sinner”.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I do believe that this is the one true Church passed on by Christ

This is the key right here. The “one true Church passed on by Christ” says, with all the authority of being said Church passed on by Christ, that your position is incorrect.

As you requested, I will not debate the actual issue you are referring to. But we really don’t need to to know the answer: the mere fact that the Church passed on by Christ teaches that the actions you refer to are not allowed is enough.

Of course, discussing the issue itself can deepen understanding, and, at least in my opinion, understanding is a thousand times more preferable to simple knowledge. But when we have the knowledge, we must keep it in mind if we want our quest for understanding to get anywhere. And so if our own thoughts tend to take us away from what we know to be true (or what we would know to be true if we hadn’t already accepted our own reasoning over the facts we were given), it is generally a good idea to look over our thought process very carefully - fully expecting to find an error.

But I digress:

You’ve caught yourself in a logical contradiction: you believe on the one hand that the Church is the Church founded by Christ, with all the authority that implies, and on the other hand that this Church is teaching incorrectly on matters of faith and morals.

That is not possible. If the Church’s position on the issue were incorrect, that would mean it is using its authority to teach contrary to the truth and hence in opposition to God. But as Christ’s Church would be incapable of doing so, this would mean that the Church is not Christ’s Church.

To reconcile this, you have to make a choice: is the Church right (and the true Church), or are you right (and hence the Church is not the true Church)?

A short answer to your question: logically, you can’t. But I would recommend reading up on the specific issues you have problems with, I am confident that if you approach them with an open mind, and starting from the most basic level - that is, review what the Church says is meant by words such as love, freedom, and sin, etc etc, you will see that the Church teachings really do make sense.

The mathematician in me is consistently impressed with how elegant and beautiful the Churches teachings really are, especially how various parts relate to each other, but to see this requires some time and a willingness to accept that words such as love may not mean exactly what comes to our mind when we think of them. (It’s rather similar to taking a physics course and finding out that all those words people throw around like velocity, force, charge, and energy have actual, precise meanings, and that they aren’t exactly always what people mean in common language.)

The Catechism is an amazing place to start.

 

[mcrow]

Well, I think that, as other people have mentioned, you don’t have to 100% agree with the Church to be Catholic.

I do think that people have to recognize that the homosexual relations/lifestyle is a sin. However, we are all sinners and yet us non-homosexual folk are not cast out of the church. Homosexual behavior is a sin, but I believe the church says that if you repent of your sin, stop the behavior and do good deeds you can still make it into Heaven.

There’s a plave for everyone under the Catholic umbrella.

I would say the difference between straight sinners and homosexual sinners is that:

Straight sinners of the Catholic faith are generally willing to repent of their sins and ask forgiveness. I have yet to meet a homosexual willing to repent of the sins they commit while in a relationship with a person of the same sex.

It’s also a fact that a Priest will not give the Body and Blood to a known homosexual since known sinners are not supposed to take part in the Eucharist.

This is comming from a son of a lesbian mother.

 

[illmatic]

Hello Illmatic,

First of all the Church of course still considers you a Catholic so don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. I believe you are asking what do we do once we immerse ourselves in prayer, instruct and inform our consciences as to Church teaching, and yet still after all of that, in good conscience we disagree.

CCC 1776 Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, **ever calling him to love **and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . **His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God **whose voice echoes in his depths.

CCC 1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

CCC 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

I hope this helps. May you continue to walk with Him in love and The Golden Rule. God bless you my Catholic brother in Christ. Peace be with you always.

Thanks for this, I’m not anywhere near as familiar with the Catechism as I should be and I find it really comforting that this is here because I’ve felt really awkward with the finality of ‘you must accept dogma’ posts. That said, I don’t want to use this as a cop out and reason to stop thinking about the issue. Thanks!

 

[illmatic]

It’s also a fact that a Priest will not give the Body and Blood to a known homosexual since known sinners are not supposed to take part in the Eucharist.

I think this post is misleading. It is not the case that the Priest may not administer Communion to a known homosexual – it is the case that he may not give Communion to any person known to be sexually active out with the Church’s designated marriage situation. It is not about homosexuality at all here. It is about sexual activity instead.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks for this, I’m not anywhere near as familiar with the Catechism as I should be and I find it really comforting that this is here because I’ve felt really awkward with the finality of ‘you must accept dogma’ posts. That said, I don’t want to use this as a cop out and reason to stop thinking about the issue. Thanks!

Our conscience must be in accord with the Church as far as possible, and as others have pointed out, our beginning point is not to say, “This is a popular belief and therefore I believe it, so I disagree with the Church,” but rather, “The Church’s teachings were first given by Christ, who is God, and therefore cannot be incorrect - what am I missing, and how can I learn more about this, from the Church’s point of view?”

In other words, we don’t start out by deciding to disagree - we start out by admitting that we don’t understand why Christ taught these things (and maybe we don’t even really understand what the teaching is, itself - maybe we are missing a few details), and seeking further understanding.

It’s also important to remember that your conscience is not your opinion - your conscience is your sense of right and wrong. At a very basic level, most of us instinctively know that homosexuality is wrong - that the human body is not really designed for that kind of sex - so by means of our conscience, we can change our opinions.

 

[mark_a]

My friend asked me how I could associate myself with the Church if I thought that teaching was wrong because I was quite literally supporting the cause through my support of the Church.

I agree with your friend.

Before leaving the Church though, you owe it to yourself to educate yourself as to why the Church teaches as she does.

 

[illmatic]

I agree with your friend.

Before leaving the Church though, you owe it to yourself to educate yourself as to why the Church teaches as she does.

Turning my back on my faith is not an option. Here’s the score: I believe that Christ started the Church, ordained Peter the first Pope. I believe in the sacraments. I believe that I connect with God in a deep, personal level through the sacraments, mass, scripture, prayer. I believe that, yes, I do not know better than years of Church teachings. I cannot, however, understand why the application of a teaching of love should be as negative as it is in the case of the homosexuality issue. I do not think that the Church’s teaching should lead to the current anti-gay marriage, adoption etc. campaigning that is condoned. I have issue more with the political implications and practice of the Church’s view on homosexuality, rather than the ethical teachings. That said, I do not understand the ethical teachings. I am reading, praying, thinking and questioning, but I genuinely have not been able to subscribe to the view that homosexuality is necessarily disordered or wrong (I don’t want this thread to turn into that issue, I’m just trying to give background). And I certainly have not found myself finding any common ground with a lot of the potentially estranging anti-homosexual practices of professed Catholics and Christians. I see a lot of it as in direct conflict with what I understand to be Christ’s message of love, community, equality.
I suppose the issue is that my faith, spirituality and a large part of my morality is coming into conflict with promoting (in particular) this one issue I do not agree with by aligning myself with the Church.

 

[Linda_Marie]

Thanks for this, I’m not anywhere near as familiar with the Catechism as I should be and I find it really comforting that this is here because I’ve felt really awkward with the finality of ‘you must accept dogma’ posts. That said, I don’t want to use this as a cop out and reason to stop thinking about the issue. Thanks!

I did not advise that you stop thinking about it. I advised that you investigate deeper and learn why the Church teaches as it does. In the meantime, accept the Teaching of the Church. This has been passed on to us from the Apostles who got it from Christ.

If, after you have investigated fully, you still believe that “X” is not a sin, then the conscience clause comes in.

Unfortunately, many liberal Catholics have taken this conscience clause to mean they can disregard any or all of the Church’s Teachings and still remain Catholic. I believe they are gravely mistaken and imperil their immortal souls.

The key part of this is fully-formed conscience. Before I became Catholic, I did a lot of things the Church considers mortally sinful and did not think I was doing anything wrong. I knew that the Church called these things mortally sinful and I pooh-poohed it. What did they know, those celibate old men in Rome? I did not have a fully formed conscience.

There are many sins which will separate us from God. The Church teaches the Way to God. The road is narrow and difficult and sometimes requires us to accept things on Faith.

When it comes to something I’m not sure about, I am glad that I have the Church to guide me. My ultimate goal is to reach Heaven, to live there with The Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all the angels and Saints. That is what the Church wants as well. She does not Teach things arbitrarily. She teaches the Way to God.

 

[bkayw]

Putting aside Catholicism, it is heretical against Sacred Scripture to make holy the sexual acts of noncelibate same sex attracted persons.

Jesus instituted the papacy to make moral decisions for His Church in each generation.

The Pope, Jesus’ representative here, has said “no” to homosexual unions and their sexual acts.

 

[bkayw]

Do not listen to CMatt25.

He or she has picked and chosen the paragraphs in the Catechism to defend moral relativism.

No person calling him or herself a Catholic can support homosexuality because a malformed conscience instructs them to. That is how various protestant denominations work, not Catholicism.

Hello Illmatic,

First of all the Church of course still considers you a Catholic so don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. I believe you are asking what do we do once we immerse ourselves in prayer, instruct and inform our consciences as to Church teaching, and yet still after all of that, in good conscience we disagree.

CCC 1776 Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, **ever calling him to love **and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . **His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God **whose voice echoes in his depths.

CCC 1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

CCC 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

I hope this helps. May you continue to walk with Him in love and The Golden Rule. God bless you my Catholic brother in Christ. Peace be with you always.

 

[Linda_Marie]

As to how the Church treats homosexuals, several of our previous parish priests have been celibate homosexuals so you can’t say that they are excluded from the Church.

 

[bkayw]

Celibate same sex attracted priests.

Homosexuals are persons active in the noncelibate lifestyle.

 

[jmcrae]

Turning my back on my faith is not an option. Here’s the score: I believe that Christ started the Church, ordained Peter the first Pope. I believe in the sacraments. I believe that I connect with God in a deep, personal level through the sacraments, mass, scripture, prayer. I believe that, yes, I do not know better than years of Church teachings.

This is an excellent starting place, You are already miles ahead of most of the people who wonder about these things.

I cannot, however, understand why the application of a teaching of love should be as negative as it is in the case of the homosexuality issue.

In what sense is it more “negative” than the commandment not to steal (we are prejudiced against kleptomaniacs) or the commandment not to kill (we are prejudiced against sociopaths)?

I do not think that the Church’s teaching should lead to the current anti-gay marriage, adoption etc. campaigning that is condoned.

If the homosexual act goes against God’s will for sex (do you agree that it does?) then it follows that homosexuals should not attempt “marriage” and nor should they try to play at “family” by adopting children into their unnatural arrangement.

I genuinely have not been able to subscribe to the view that homosexuality is necessarily disordered or wrong (I don’t want this thread to turn into that issue, I’m just trying to give background). And I certainly have not found myself finding any common ground with a lot of the potentially estranging anti-homosexual practices of professed Catholics and Christians. I see a lot of it as in direct conflict with what I understand to be Christ’s message of love, community, equality.

Christ does promote love, community, and equality - but not at every cost. Remember, He called sinners to repent and sin no more. His community is a community of Saints.

Those who would not admit they were sinners, or who continued in their sins, He called “vipers” and “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” He did not admit them into His community.