How can you be Democratic and also be Catholic?

[Randolph]

Well said. Abortion is intrinsically evil and is a moral issue. Around 650,000 abortions (innocent babies killed) are performed per year in the US alone. Evil is evil—irrespective of what the polls say. If we don’t protect innocent babies, who will??

The most dangerous and violent place for babies to be in is in the mothers’ womb. Just think about that…

 

[Randolph]

As I have said multiple times, these forums seems to attract what I call “black and whiters.” People who see only black or white, not shades of grey. And yet virtually every issue is a shade of grey. I’m a “shade of grey” person.

It is black and white when it comes to the slaughter of innocent unborn babies in their mothers’ womb. I will spare you and other CAF members of the gruesome details of what actually happens to the babies during abortion procedures. It’s barbaric, unconscionable and pure evil.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’m going to help you out here. Here’s a good article by Avery Dulles.

I wonder if you could find me a place in a papal encyclical where a pope quotes the same thing as Avery Dulles. Many priests, cardinals and bishops will say things but since they are not the Pope and they are not speaking ex-Cathedra there is always the possibility of error.

Such as:

"Nobody has ever undertaken to draw up a complete list of the Church’s dogmas, and the effort would be futile, because there are many borderline cases. "

because:

https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Catholic-Dogma-Ludwig-Ott/dp/0895550091

As I have said multiple times, these forums seems to attract what I call “black and whiters.” People who see only black or white, not shades of grey. And yet virtually every issue is a shade of grey. I’m a “shade of grey” person.

Every issue is not a shade of grey. There is right and wrong without anything in between in many actions.

That said, as humans we can not judge a person’s heart or motives in those actions, that is for God alone or perhaps a court of law but we can know an action is right or wrong.

 

[Annie]

Then go back to the 1869 change where all abortions were considered murder. Then, in the context of your sentence “…standards developed by people who know so little…”

Because despite their lack of knowledge they got it right, we should abandon that now that we know more?

The father’s sperm contains his DNA. The mother’s egg contains her DNA. At what point do these combine to form a new individual’s DNA?

The process begins when the sperm penetrates the egg and the egg undergoes changes to keep other sperm out.

In less than 24 to 30 hours (estimates vary), the combined egg/sperm cell begins to divide.

So I would say the process starts when the sperm enters the egg and is complete when the cell starts to divide.

 

[Rasoleil]

Many right-wing white supremacists have come from outside those particular cities and intentionally come to the protests to cause mayhem, property damage, arson, etc, to inflame, and to have the blame put on others. And many have photographed, videod, and arrested. And hooligans of all sorts also came out to destroy
riot, burn, and loot, even organized criminals who targeted certain high end stores, such as on 5th Avenue, in NYC, for example. Remember the the peaceful protests happened during the day, but once n ight came, then the rioters of all stripes came out to cause destruction. Don’t blame it all on liberal Democrats and BLM, and it’s not correct to make sweeping generalizations. Blame it on the radicals on both the left and the right, and the opportunists who had their own insidious agendas.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Catholicism should not be partisan. We see that a lot here because it is easy.

 

[pnewton]

Bishops are not infallible and have no place in telling Catholic how to vote and for whom. Or for that matter, to tell Catholics what particular issue or issues are those issues that a Catholic must define how they should or must vote. That is undemocratic, small “d” and unAmerican.

If you want to close them out, that is your prerogative. I believe one’s faith should come before politics though, so I think there is value in listening to one’s own bishop at least. However, I have never had a bishop that said how I should vote specifically, that is, for whom I should vote by name. I might think differently had one crossed that line, though I still would hear him out.

 

[pnewton]

Many right-wing white supremacists have come from outside those particular cities and intentionally come to the protests to cause mayhem

We know of some situation where that has happened. That is why I blow off all this general condemnation of “liberal Democrats” burning down the “country,” especially as Republicans have the majority of control.

 

[pnewton]

It is black and white when it comes to the slaughter of innocent unborn babies in their mothers’ womb.

This is a black and white issue, as are all moral issues. As Pope Francis asked, what morals are negotiable? This includes the moral imperative to the poor, social justice, the immigrant, the environment, birth control, civil divorce, etc. The issues are black and white. The political reaction is not.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

we can know an action is right or wrong

Perhaps true. But we can never know the intention behind the action. And the person doing the action doesn’t necessarily know either.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The process begins when the sperm penetrates the egg

You’ve got that right, but it doesn’t answer my question at all. Again, this is science, not religion. I’m asking about individual DNA, not the beginning of a “process.” Try again.

 

[StudentMI]

Catholicism should not be partisan. We see that a lot here because it is easy.

I think it has to do with both the US-centric nature of the board, along with the loss of unity among Catholics.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

But we can never know the intention behind the action. And the person doing the action doesn’t necessarily know either.

I agree. As I mentioned we cannot judge a person’s heart or motives for why they did a certain action but because of God’s Divine Revelation through His Word and Sacred Tradition given to the Church and also natural law placed in our hearts by God, we do know what actions are right and what actions are wrong.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

We know of some situation where that has happened. That is why I blow off all this general condemnation of “liberal Democrats” burning down the “country,” especially as Republicans have the majority of control.

If you listened to Pence’s speech during the convention, he talked about a Homeland Security agent who was shot and killed “during the protests” in Oakland. It wasn’t an off-hand comment. He brought on the widow (not sure about that–a relative).

And Pence was absolutely right. The agent WAS shot “during the protests.” The agent was Black. He was shot and killed by two White Supremacists, one of whom is in the Army and a member of the White Supremacist “Boogaloo” organization. Pence? Misleading? What? No, can’t be…

 

[Erikaspirit16]

we do know what actions are right and what actions are wrong.

Well, yes and no. It’s a grey area! Let’s take an obvious commandment: Thou shalt not kill. But wait a minute! There are a host of exceptions and footnotes! And the more you start to delve into it, the greyer and greyer it gets. I think that for ANY action that is “wrong,” you could come along and say, “Yes, but what if…” which is why, as you say, we can’t judge. We don’t have the knowledge. We can find someone guilty in a court of law, but that’s a different standard.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I think it has to do with both the US-centric nature of the board, along with the loss of unity among Catholics.

Yes, but…what’s fascinating to me is that if someone brought all this up in say, 1955, almost everyone would yawn and turn the page. So what happened to make this so heated? After all, abortion has been around ever since mankind emerged. It’s not a new thing.

My own theory (borne out by a Google N-gram search on the term “abortion”) is that all this started up in the late 60’s. A combination of a lot of things–Paul VI saying contraception was evil; the beginnings of the Women’s Liberation movement; the movement of countries to de-criminalize abortion; a different view (whether right or wrong) of morality after Vatican II; a general willingness to challenge authority; and of course Roe v. Wade. Put them all together, and here we are.

 

[StudentMI]

Yes. I would agree. Abortion began to be promoted as a right in the modern age as far back as the anarchist movement. I know Emma Goldman wrote something on abortion.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It’s a grey area!

I am sorry but we will have to agree to disagree here because the action, the sin itself can defined as wrong. The Ten Commandments do not say, thou shalt not unless…
He doesn’t say, thou shall not commit adultery unless…
He doesn’t say thou shall not covet unless…
God says what is right and wrong and what is sin. That’s it. He does not give us gray areas.
He gave us the Catholic Church to lead us into salvation by knowing what is wrong and avoiding sin.

we can’t judge. We don’t have the knowledge

We don’t judge the motive or the heart of a person but we CAN know what actions are right and what actions are wrong.
We can’t judge the heart of someone who steals but we know that stealing is wrong.
We can’t judge the heart of someone who commits adultery but we know that adultery is wrong.

In all charity, I think we are going around in circles on this, so again, we will just have to agree to disagree. There is such a thing as right and wrong.

God bless.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes, but…what’s fascinating to me is that if someone brought all this up in say, 1955, almost everyone would yawn and turn the page.

There wasn’t Roe v Wade and the number of abortions were no where near the numbers they are today.
They would not yawn and turn the page. It would have been considered by most people as sin.

all this started up in the late 60’s

Yes, the women’s liberation movement led the increase of the numbers of abortions.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

In all charity, I think we are going around in circles on this, so again, we will just have to agree to disagree. There is such a thing as right and wrong.

I agree–we have to disagree! But I do want to point out that this exact argument is going on in the Church at the highest levels. I have written this elsewhere, but it’s worth repeating. A little analogy.

The state passes a traffic law: You have to stop at a red light. If you go through a red light that is “wrong.” But wait! What if you are rushing to the hospital with a dying person? Or any one of many, many good excuses? And what if the police stop you after you run the light, and you give them your excuse. Now the policeman has to decide: Should he give you a ticket or not? And if he does, and you go to court and explain your “wrong” action to the judge, he has to decide whether to fine you or let you go.

Now in this little analogy we have people like Cardinal Muller in Germany saying (in effect) “Running a red light is against the law. It’s wrong. If you do it, you will be punished.” And some cardinals and Francis on the other side are saying “We know that running a red light is generally not a good thing, but there could be valid reasons why you do it. We have to look at each case and the intention behind running the red light.” Simplified, but that’s basically it.

In fact, I would side with Cardinal Muller–you need laws against running red lights. If you don’t, people will get the idea it’s OK, which would lead to chaos. But at the same time, you have to realize each individual act has to be judged on its own merits, and no law can ever encompass all possibilities.

And if you can’t think of any scenarios where the act of committing adultery would be sinless, I certainly can. But this is a PG site! But think about it.

There are other religions (that will remain nameless so the moderators don’t get excited) where the action per se is simply wrong. It you do X, you have sinned. That’s it. No excuses, no extenuating circumstance, none of this nonsense about free will and consent and intention. You do it, you’re guilty. But that’s not the Catholic Church.