How Church could be infallible?

[seagal]

Then why there should be any problems in Catholic Church’s teaching to allows division if Catholic Church was telling the truth? There shouldn’t be any deficiency in Jesus teaching to allows branching if his mission was complete.

There was no deficiency in his teaching. The deficiency was in the humans who didn’t understand or accept the truth when they heard it.

 

[Vico]

The Church assembly is a group of people who learn, interpret and preach Bible. How they could be right when the original church divided into different branches?

Union must be maintained with the Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops. Those that did not maintain union continued without the full teaching or expressed it differently due to difficulty understanding due to differences in languages.

 

[Bahman]

There was no deficiency in his teaching. The deficiency was in the humans who didn’t understand or accept the truth when they heard it.

There is a deficiency in the teaching. Why Jesus didn’t provide his teaching in a language and form that all people can understand? He is omniscient.

 

[Bahman]

Union must be maintained with the Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops. Those that did not maintain union continued without the full teaching or expressed it differently due to difficulty understanding due to differences in languages.

Why then Jesus teaching should be difficult to understand and people misunderstand his teaching due to difference in language? Jesus is omniscient and he should be able to provide his teaching the best.

 

[Gorgias]

There is a deficiency in the teaching. Why Jesus didn’t provide his teaching in a language and form that all people can understand? He is omniscient.

Jesus did do precisely that! He taught in the language that his listeners understood, and then charged them with disseminating that teaching to the world. Through the Holy Spirit, He inspired them to speak in multiple languages on Pentecost day. That teaching was in a ‘form’ all understood – the spoken word.

No deficiencies there.

Yet, not all chose to believe. That’s not a failure on Jesus’ part – that was an exercise of free will on the part of the listener.

You’re conflating “free will choice to reject the teaching” with “deficiency in the teaching itself”. These two are not identical, and this is where the error in your argument lies.

 

[Bahman]

Jesus did do precisely that! He taught in the language that his listeners understood, and then charged them with disseminating that teaching to the world. Through the Holy Spirit, He inspired them to speak in multiple languages on Pentecost day. That teaching was in a ‘form’ all understood – the spoken word.

No deficiencies there.

My post was a response to Vico’s who claimed that the branching in Church was a result of difficulty in teaching and difference in language. I think you it is up to you to convince each other that why branching happened.

Yet, not all chose to believe. That’s not a failure on Jesus’ part – that was an exercise of free will on the part of the listener.

You’re conflating “free will choice to reject the teaching” with “deficiency in the teaching itself”. These two are not identical, and this is where the error in your argument lies.

Free will is an illusion. We are just rational being. Hence I don’t think that a rational being chose Hell over Heaven. Would you?

 

[Vico]

Why then Jesus teaching should be difficult to understand and people misunderstand his teaching due to difference in language? Jesus is omniscient and he should be able to provide his teaching the best.

There is always a possibility of misunderstanding due to different personal capabilities and various environments, or even intentionally through pride. So we are given faith, hope, and charity, through the Holy Spirit, that we may be able to like a Christlike life.

 

[seagal]

My post was a response to Vico’s who claimed that the branching in Church was a result of difficulty in teaching and difference in language. I think you it is up to you to convince each other that why branching happened.

It’s already been explained why the “branching” happened.

Free will is an illusion. We are just rational being. Hence I don’t think that a rational being chose Hell over Heaven. Would you?

Having free will and being rational beings are not mutually exclusive conditions. In fact, you need to be rational in order to exercise free will, to weigh different options and to make a choice. An animal with no rational thought does not have free will. So you contradicted your own position.

A person, if asked whether the would rather risk all kinds of cancer and other health problems and continue to smoke, or give it up and live longer, would say they choose not to smoke. But these same people keep smoking anyway, knowing it’s a bad choice and knowing exactly what the risks are. Similarly, a person if asked if they would rather go to heaven or hell is naturally going to choose heaven. But they continue to make choices that take them further and further away from salvation.

 

[Gorgias]

My post was a response to Vico’s who claimed that the branching in Church was a result of difficulty in teaching and difference in language.

No… your post that I responded to was in conversation with seagal, to whom you said:

Bahman:

There shouldn’t be any deficiency in Jesus teaching to allows branching

Therefore, both seagal and I reminded you that a decision made by a person does not imply that the teaching of Jesus was deficient in any way.

Free will is an illusion. We are just rational being.

The very definition of ‘rational’ implies that we, ourselves, think through things and make decisions on our own – and therefore, will these decisions personally.

Hence I don’t think that a rational being chose Hell over Heaven. Would you?

You’ll have to find a person in hell and ask him. In any case, your question is improperly constructed: it’s not that people choose hell – it’s that they choose to say ‘no’ to God. (Hell is just the consequence of that “no thanks” decision…)

 

[Bahman]

There is always a possibility of misunderstanding due to different personal capabilities and various environments, or even intentionally through pride. So we are given faith, hope, and charity, through the Holy Spirit, that we may be able to like a Christlike life.

No, think of mathematics. All rational persons agree on rules of mathematics. Why we should have different believes? How there could be different truth? Why branching in Church could happen?

 

[Bookcat]

The Church assembly is a group of people who learn, interpret and preach Bible. How they could be right when the original church divided into different branches?

Because the Church is not divided into different branches.

 

[Bookcat]

From the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

185.** When is the infallibility of the Magisterium exercised?
**
890-891

Infallibility is exercised when the Roman Pontiff, in virtue of his office as the Supreme Pastor of the Church, or the College of Bishops, in union with the Pope especially when joined together in an Ecumenical Council, proclaim by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. Infallibility is also exercised when the Pope and Bishops in their ordinary Magisterium are in agreement in proposing a doctrine as definitive. Every one of the faithful must adhere to such teaching with the obedience of faith.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

Jesus did finish his work. Now we have ours.

He is still at work…

And he gave us the Holy Spirit too (as I am sure you or others have mentioned) who is at work.

 

[Bookcat]

From the** Compendium** issued by Pope Benedict XVI

185.** When is the infallibility of the Magisterium exercised?
**
890-891

Infallibility is exercised when the Roman Pontiff, in virtue of his office as the Supreme Pastor of the Church, or the College of Bishops, in union with the Pope especially when joined together in an Ecumenical Council, proclaim by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. Infallibility is also exercised when the Pope and Bishops in their ordinary Magisterium are in agreement in proposing a doctrine as definitive. Every one of the faithful must adhere to such teaching with the obedience of faith.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Bahman]

It’s already been explained why the “branching” happened.

Where?

Having free will and being rational beings are not mutually exclusive conditions. In fact, you need to be rational in order to exercise free will, to weigh different options and to make a choice. An animal with no rational thought does not have free will. So you contradicted your own position.

What faith has anything to do with free will? Truth should be so transparent that everybody agrees with it. Consider mathematics for an example.

A person, if asked whether the would rather risk all kinds of cancer and other health problems and continue to smoke, or give it up and live longer, would say they choose not to smoke. But these same people keep smoking anyway, knowing it’s a bad choice and knowing exactly what the risks are. Similarly, a person if asked if they would rather go to heaven or hell is naturally going to choose heaven. But they continue to make choices that take them further and further away from salvation.

You are mixing two different problems. Smoking is an addiction and it is hard to quit.

The main question is why people performs evil which is against their good nature. The only solution in my mind is the intervention of Satan. Why then Satan should be free to temp people? I don’t know. Perhaps God and Satan are friends. Do you have any better idea?

 

[Bahman]

There is always a possibility of misunderstanding due to different personal capabilities and various environments, or even intentionally through pride. So we are given faith, hope, and charity, through the Holy Spirit, that we may be able to like a Christlike life.

Truth should be so transparent such as mathematics so all people agrees about it. God knows the Truth and he is omniscient. It should’t be any difficulty for God to tell the Truth in a language that there is no room left for misunderstanding.

 

[Bahman]

No… your post that I responded to was in conversation with seagal, to whom you said:

Vico.

Therefore, both seagal and I reminded you that a decision made by a person does not imply that the teaching of Jesus was deficient in any way.

Is there any deficiency in mathematics so people interpret it differently? No. God is omniscient and He should be able to say the truth in a language that all people agree upon.

You’ll have to find a person in hell and ask him. In any case, your question is improperly constructed: it’s not that people choose hell – it’s that they choose to say ‘no’ to God. (Hell is just the consequence of that “no thanks” decision…)

How rational persons can say no to God if they face Him and experience Hell and Heaven?

 

[Bahman]

Because the Church is not divided into different branches.

We have Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic,… Churches. So division did happened.

 

[davidv]

We have Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic,… Churches. So division did happened.

The only one in the list that can be properly call the Church is “Catholic”. All others are not the Church as has be referred to by other posters.
The divisions are not the Church’s, nor God’s, doing.

 

[Bookcat]

We have Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic,… Churches. So division did happened.

Divisions among Christians - yes.

The Church remains* one. *

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Protestant ecclesial communities -while made up of Christians (who indeed are so and are our brothers) are not branches of the Catholic Church.

The Church is and will always remain one.