How Church could be infallible?

[Vico]

Do you mean that Adam and Eve knew the truth? If yes why Jesus didn’t offer the truth to us?

He did and does now through the Church and sacraments.

John 14: 6, 16, 26
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate* to be with you always,

26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you.

• [14:6] The truth: in John, the divinely revealed reality of the Father manifested in the person and works of Jesus. The possession of truth confers knowledge and liberation from sin (Jn 8:32).
• [14:16] Another Advocate: Jesus is the first advocate (paraclete); see 1 Jn 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has returned to the Father.

 

[Bahman]

You’ve never seen two mathematicians argue, then…

Yes, because they are trying to understand the truth. At the end of the they one approve the fact and one accept the fact. Now look at our faiths, we cannot simply agree in one faith no matter how hard we try.

It’s wonderful that you have the kind of faith in humanity that believes that if – oh, just if! – people had a set of objective, undeniable facts in front of them, we’d all agree and we’d all get along and we’d all hug and sing Kumbaya. I’ve seen too much disagreement and disagreeability in my half century to think that this is the case. People will disagree and debate and deny… even if the facts are right there in front of them.

Human as a rational being and cannot deny the fact.

There’s a famous line from the ‘Godfather’ movies. Don Corleone looks at a person and says, “I’m gonna make him an offer he can’t refuse.” The implication is that he’s not offering a choice at all – there’s only one outcome, and the person has no real choice in the matter.

God tells us that He wishes us to choose Him of our own volition. He sent us His son to facilitate the opportunity for us to make that choice. If, at the end of our lives, we saw God in all His glory, there would be no choice – it’d be the “offer we can’t refuse.” If that were the case, then God would have told us we can choose, but then, ultimately, there would be no choosing at all. In fact, God would be a monster – allowing us to suffer and feel pain, and then, at the end, just saying, “psych! It wasn’t real! I made it all up! Now… say ‘yes’!”

Rather, God does allow us to make a choice while we’re able to do so of our own volition. Because we make a choice willingingly, that choice has value and meaning.

What type of choice it is when we can simply doubt God? We have no fact in our disposal to be sure in this life about our believes. We simply believe this or that.

 

[Bahman]

You keep citing math as the ultimate in truth. Do you not accept truth as revealed in other sciences? Numbers are a very special abstract truth, but even in that field you’ll find disagreement.

Any scientific finding must be expressed in term of mathematical equations. So at the end of the day that is math which rules.

You should listen to John Lennox, a Christian apologist and a Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford. Maybe you can learn something from a person who understands truth in mathematics and can also accept truth in Christianity

Thanks for the link. I will watch it later.

 

[Bahman]

He did and does now through the Church and sacraments.

John 14: 6, 16, 26
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate* to be with you always,

26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you.

• [14:6] The truth: in John, the divinely revealed reality of the Father manifested in the person and works of Jesus. The possession of truth confers knowledge and liberation from sin (Jn 8:32).
• [14:16] Another Advocate: Jesus is the first advocate (paraclete); see 1 Jn 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has returned to the Father.

Why Jesus didn’t finish his teaching so Church only covey His message. Instead we are left with a lots of gaps we should understand ourselves.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, because they are trying to understand the truth. At the end of the they one approve the fact and one accept the fact. Now look at our faiths, we cannot simply agree in one faith no matter how hard we try.

So, two mathematicians who disagree are ok because they’re acting in good faith and ‘are trying to understand the truth’, but two people of faith aren’t ok? Aren’t they acting in good faith? Aren’t they ‘trying to understand the truth’?

Human as a rational being and cannot deny the fact.

Actually, yes. Humans do deny facts, all the time. :sad_yes:

What type of choice it is when we can simply doubt God?

It is the choice to believe or not. When it comes down to it, it’s the most real and profound choice we get to make in this life…

We have no fact in our disposal to be sure in this life about our believes. We simply believe this or that.

That’s absolutely not true! We have a plethora of truths to investigate and upon which to conclude: the life of Jesus as recorded by his contemporaries; the life of the Church (especially as recorded by the Early Church Fathers); the accounts of the Bible. Not just a matter of blind faith – there’s much for human reason to contemplate, too…

 

[Bahman]

So, two mathematicians who disagree are ok because they’re acting in good faith and ‘are trying to understand the truth’, but two people of faith aren’t ok? Aren’t they acting in good faith? Aren’t they ‘trying to understand the truth’?

That is alright if two people discuss their faiths using logic. I however don’t know if we are cognitively open to understand the truth using the rules of logic. Look at different branches of philosophy for example: Idealist, materialist, realist, etc.

Actually, yes. Humans do deny facts, all the time. :sad_yes:

You cannot deny the fact when you discuss mathematics, science is mathematical way to describe what you observe and we can trust if it is anomaly free, philosophy has branches hence we cannot be sure about it, theology just forget it.

It is the choice to believe or not. When it comes down to it, it’s the most real and profound choice we get to make in this life…

We cannot possibly prove God unless we are cognitively open to His creation. That however only will tell us about His creation and we very far from that point. So the only solution to this problem is to experience God.

That’s absolutely not true! We have a plethora of truths to investigate and upon which to conclude: the life of Jesus as recorded by his contemporaries; the life of the Church (especially as recorded by the Early Church Fathers); the accounts of the Bible. Not just a matter of blind faith – there’s much for human reason to contemplate, too…

That simply doesn’t tell us anything. Look at different branches of Christianity, different religions…

 

[Vico]

Why Jesus didn’t finish his teaching so Church only covey His message. Instead we are left with a lots of gaps we should understand ourselves.

The revelation is complete. The Catechism teaches:

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

 

[Bahman]

The revelation is complete. The Catechism teaches:

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

So why we have Christian philosophers? What they are looking for to find?

 

[Vico]

So why we have Christian philosophers? What they are looking for to find?

Religion presents to man the solution of man’s problems which also concern philosophy. The purpose is deepening of the most important truths gained by philosophical labor which is sometimes with the help of Divine Revelation. St. Pope John Paul II said that philosophy “is directly concerned with asking the question of life’s meaning and sketching an answer to it.” Fides et ratio (14 September 1998),

 

[Bahman]

Religion presents to man the solution of man’s problems which also concern philosophy. The purpose is deepening of the most important truths gained by philosophical labor which is sometimes with the help of Divine Revelation. St. Pope John Paul II said that philosophy “is directly concerned with asking the question of life’s meaning and sketching an answer to it.” Fides et ratio (14 September 1998),

You said that revelation was completed with Jesus so people in principle should be able to understand the truth. Now you are saying that we need philosophers to deepening the truth sometimes with divine helps. The philosophers could simply be mistaken if they don’t receive divine helps.

 

[seagal]

You said that revelation was completed with Jesus so people in principle should be able to understand the truth. Now you are saying that we need philosophers to deepening the truth sometimes with divine helps. The philosophers could simply be mistaken if they don’t receive divine helps.

Everything we need to know to be saved was taught by Jesus. If you know nothing else except what is in the scriptures you know as much as you need to know. That is the truth.

But since that time, philosophers and theologians have expanded their ideas and knowledge to fully understand what we know. Because that is after all, what theologians and philosophers do. They are increasing our understanding of the truth, but we can get to heaven without a PHD.

Mathematicians do the same thing you know. After all, numbers are only absolutely necessary to get us through basic day to day life. But numberphiles take delight in finding out things like the highest prime number or the 1 millionth place of pi. Is that knowledge going to help me balance my cheque book? Nope, no matter how true it is it doesn’t help me much. It’s just a bit of knowledge that mathematicians like to have.

 

[Vico]

You said that revelation was completed with Jesus so people in principle should be able to understand the truth. Now you are saying that we need philosophers to deepening the truth sometimes with divine helps. The philosophers could simply be mistaken if they don’t receive divine helps.

There is nothing contradictory there. Revelation is complete. The conclusion that people in principle should be able to understand the truth is unfounded. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit not a development of reason. The Dogma given by the Church is:

In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order. (De fide.) (from Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

 

[Bahman]

Everything we need to know to be saved was taught by Jesus. If you know nothing else except what is in the scriptures you know as much as you need to know. That is the truth.

That is not true. Go to a library to see how immense is the truth. Truth cannot simply be explained in one book.

But since that time, philosophers and theologians have expanded their ideas and knowledge to fully understand what we know. Because that is after all, what theologians and philosophers do. They are increasing our understanding of the truth, but we can get to heaven without a PHD.

Expand what? You can expand the knowledge we you current understanding on subject matter is not complete. This is however contrary to the fact you accepted that Bible is complete truth.

 

[Bahman]

There is nothing contradictory there. Revelation is complete.

Then what the philosophers and theologists do?

The conclusion that people in principle should be able to understand the truth is unfounded. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit not a development of reason.

So you mean that Bible is not enough to understand the truth.

The Dogma given by the Church is:
In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order. (De fide.) (from Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

Yes, it is impossible for us to understand the truth without error. That is however is part of our natures and that is how we understand things. Bible if it is really complete should be enough to explain the truth which is not. Otherwise we didn’t need philosophers and theologists to expand our knowledge which cannot be error free.

 

[seagal]

That is not true. Go to a library to see how immense is the truth. Truth cannot simply be explained in one book.

It is true, you didn’t read carefully what I said. I didn’t say all the truth is contained in scripture, I said **Everything we need to know to be saved is in scripture. **If that wasn’t true then the apostles wouldn’t be saved or the people they preached to. In fact nobody would be saved until they learned every little bit of the truth and that won’t happen until we are with God.
John 16:12-13 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.

Expand what? You can expand the knowledge we you current understanding on subject matter is not complete. This is however contrary to the fact you accepted that Bible is complete truth.

As I said, we don’t need to have complete knowledge to be saved. Children who die or illiterate people or people who are less intelligent would never know on earth everything there is to know about truth. But they can still go to heaven.

 

[Vico]

Then what the philosophers and theologists do?

So you mean that Bible is not enough to understand the truth.

Yes, it is impossible for us to understand the truth without error. That is however is part of our natures and that is how we understand things. Bible if it is really complete should be enough to explain the truth which is not. Otherwise we didn’t need philosophers and theologists to expand our knowledge which cannot be error free.

The bible is not enough. Catholics teach that the grace of the Holy Spirit is needed and that both tradition and scripture are essential.

Second Vatican Council produced Dei Verbum where the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

“Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence.”

and in 8:

“The tradition which comes from the apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts, through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For, as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her”

The point is that Supernatural Revelation was given to us.

I posted the answer to you question before:

Religion presents to man the solution of man’s problems which also concern philosophy. The purpose is deepening of the most important truths gained by philosophical labor which is sometimes with the help of Divine Revelation. St. Pope John Paul II said that philosophy “is directly concerned with asking the question of life’s meaning and sketching an answer to it.” Fides et ratio (14 September 1998),

 

[kdbueno]

The soul of Christ proves infallibility.

 

[Bahman]

It is true, you didn’t read carefully what I said. I didn’t say all the truth is contained in scripture, I said **Everything we need to know to be saved is in scripture. **If that wasn’t true then the apostles wouldn’t be saved or the people they preached to. In fact nobody would be saved until they learned every little bit of the truth and that won’t happen until we are with God.
John 16:12-13 I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.

As I said, we don’t need to have complete knowledge to be saved. Children who die or illiterate people or people who are less intelligent would never know on earth everything there is to know about truth. But they can still go to heaven.

I was not talking about who could be save and who could not. I was talking about the truth. I completely agree with what you said.

 

[Bahman]

The bible is not enough. Catholics teach that the grace of the Holy Spirit is needed and that both tradition and scripture are essential.

Second Vatican Council produced Dei Verbum where the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

“Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence.”

and in 8:

“The tradition which comes from the apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts, through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For, as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her”

But sacred tradition depend on people and they could be erroneous.

The point is that Supernatural Revelation was given to us.

I posted the answer to you question before:

Religion presents to man the solution of man’s problems which also concern philosophy. The purpose is deepening of the most important truths gained by philosophical labor which is sometimes with the help of Divine Revelation. St. Pope John Paul II said that philosophy “is directly concerned with asking the question of life’s meaning and sketching an answer to it.” Fides et ratio (14 September 1998),

That I already answered. We cannot be simply be sure about the Truth derived by people if they do not constantly receive the truth by divine revelation.

 

[Bahman]

The soul of Christ proves infallibility.

That is circular reasoning because we believe on Christianity based on the Church teaching and Christ approve the Church.