How Church could be infallible?

[seagal]

It’s already been explained why the “branching” happened.
Bahman;13956134:

Where?

My post #19

What faith has anything to do with free will?

We are endowed with free will whether we believe it or not, whether we’re Christians or not. It’s part of our human nature.

Truth should be so transparent that everybody agrees with it. Consider mathematics for an example.

You would think so but it doesn’t seem to work that way. Not everybody believes the truth that all human beings have equal rights. Not everyone believes that the earth is really round and not flat. Not everyone believes that we actually went to the moon. People who suffer from anorexia believe they’re fat even when their mirror shows them skin and bones. Some people who saw Jesus perform miracles still didn’t believe what they saw.

You are mixing two different problems. Smoking is an addiction and it is hard to quit.

Hard but not impossible. How about texting while driving? People know intellectually how dangerous it is – for everybody else. So they keep doing it.

The main question is why people performs evil which is against their good nature. The only solution in my mind is the intervention of Satan. Why then Satan should be free to temp people? I don’t know. Perhaps God and Satan are friends. Do you have any better idea?

I don’t know why people often do just the opposite of what they know they should do. Because we think the rules don’t apply to us? Because we think we’re really really careful and won’t get caught? Because sometimes we just don’t care? Because deep down they don’t really believe the truth?

Satan has a part to play but he can only tempt us, he can’t make us do anything. The only thing I know about the relationship between God and Satan is that God created Satan originally as the angel we know as Lucifer. Lucifer choose to disobey and was cast out of heaven. God must love him because God can’t hate.

 

[Gorgias]

Vico.

Seagal. Follow the post links backward.

Is there any deficiency in mathematics so people interpret it differently?

No, but there’s ‘deficiency’ in people so that they misunderstand and misinterpret mathematics. Ask anybody who’s failed freshman Calc in college.

No. God is omniscient and He should be able to say the truth in a language that all people agree upon.

You’re conflating God’s actions (telling the truth) with people’s reactions (agreement). God does not demand conformity; He gives us the opportunity to react freely. When one chooses to disagree with God, He honors that choice.

How rational persons can say no to God if they face Him and experience Hell and Heaven?

One does not get the opportunity to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to God after they’ve experienced Him following their death; that choice is made in one’s life on earth.

 

[Bahman]

The only one in the list that can be properly call the Church is “Catholic”. All others are not the Church as has be referred to by other posters.
The divisions are not the Church’s, nor God’s, doing.

So can call them temple or whatever. The question is why division occurred?

 

[Bahman]

Divisions among Christians - yes.

The Church remains* one. *

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Protestant ecclesial communities -while made up of Christians (who indeed are so and are our brothers) are not branches of the Catholic Church.

The Church is and will always remain one.

You didn’t answer that why division occurred among Christian?

 

[Bahman]

My post #19

The question is that why the truth offered by Jesus should allow branching? He is omniscient so he can declare the truth in a way that no misinterpretation or misunderstanding can happen.

We are endowed with free will whether we believe it or not, whether we’re Christians or not. It’s part of our human nature.

Free will has nothing to do with accepting fact. You cannot simply ignore any fact.

You would think so but it doesn’t seem to work that way. Not everybody believes the truth that all human beings have equal rights. Not everyone believes that the earth is really round and not flat. Not everyone believes that we actually went to the moon. People who suffer from anorexia believe they’re fat even when their mirror shows them skin and bones. Some people who saw Jesus perform miracles still didn’t believe what they saw.

The problem is that we didn’t receive the truth as a set of indisputable facts. We don’t need miracles. We need fact as a intellectual beings.

Hard but not impossible. How about texting while driving? People know intellectually how dangerous it is – for everybody else. So they keep doing it.

That is simple addiction.

I don’t know why people often do just the opposite of what they know they should do. Because we think the rules don’t apply to us? Because we think we’re really really careful and won’t get caught? Because sometimes we just don’t care? Because deep down they don’t really believe the truth?

Because we are mislead and Devils can have their tools on us freely. Don’t you agree?

Satan has a part to play but he can only tempt us, he can’t make us do anything. The only thing I know about the relationship between God and Satan is that God created Satan originally as the angel we know as Lucifer. Lucifer choose to disobey and was cast out of heaven. God must love him because God can’t hate.

How about accepting the fact that what we do can be the result of Satan and his gang temptation? In this case why we should be responsible for what we do? Satan power is beyond ours. So the main question is why Satan is free?

 

[Bahman]

No, but there’s ‘deficiency’ in people so that they misunderstand and misinterpret mathematics. Ask anybody who’s failed freshman Calc in college.

Failing a mathematics exam is the result not study the lessons well. They of course accept math as a set of indisputable facts.

You’re conflating God’s actions (telling the truth) with people’s reactions (agreement). God does not demand conformity; He gives us the opportunity to react freely. When one chooses to disagree with God, He honors that choice.

No. People cannot disagree when the truth is told in term of some indisputable facts.

One does not get the opportunity to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to God after they’ve experienced Him following their death; that choice is made in one’s life on earth.

Why we are not given the chance to choose God or not after our death and meeting God?

 

[Vico]

Truth should be so transparent such as mathematics so all people agrees about it. God knows the Truth and he is omniscient. It should’t be any difficulty for God to tell the Truth in a language that there is no room left for misunderstanding.

But with free will, and the evil from it, conscience is sometimes obscured. As a result, love is a possibility, in opposition to sin.

 

[seagal]

The question is that why the truth offered by Jesus should allow branching? He is omniscient so he can declare the truth in a way that no misinterpretation or misunderstanding can happen.

Free will has nothing to do with accepting fact. You cannot simply ignore any fact.

The problem is that we didn’t receive the truth as a set of indisputable facts. We don’t need miracles. We need fact as a intellectual beings.

That is simple addiction.

Because we are mislead and Devils can have their tools on us freely. Don’t you agree?

How about accepting the fact that what we do can be the result of Satan and his gang temptation? In this case why we should be responsible for what we do? Satan power is beyond ours. So the main question is why Satan is free?

There are too many branches in this conversation . So I’m cutting it back to the last one. Satan and his crew are strong because they know us, they know our weaknesses and they know exactly how to tempt us. But we can’t duck our own responsibility by blaming every evil we do on them. Ultimately, it’s our own choice, we are not Satan’s puppets any more than we are God’s puppets. As for why Satan is free, you’d have to ask God that question.

 

[Gorgias]

No. People cannot disagree when the truth is told in term of some indisputable facts.

You don’t know people very well, then…

Why we are not given the chance to choose God or not after our death and meeting God?

Because we’re given an entire life on earth to do so.

More to the point, your objection is a reasonable one: if God wants us to accept Him while we can make a choice of our own free will and live it out in the way we live our life, then what good would it do to see Him in all His glory? Like you said, it would seem to be impossible to say ‘no’ to God face-to-face (if, that were, we were able to choose following death). If that were the way things went, then all this – creation, Jesus, the Church – would be for nothing: we’d see Him in heaven and be compelled to say ‘yes’. That’s not ‘love’, that’s ‘coersion’… and that’s not what God’s all about.

(To be fair, though, I don’t think people are capable of making a choice once they’re separated from their bodies. They exist and are aware, but cannot choose. )

 

[Bookcat]

You didn’t answer that why division occurred among Christian?

You did not ask…

Sin and error of individuals

(but that is off topic)

 

[Bahman]

But with free will, and the evil from it, conscience is sometimes obscured. As a result, love is a possibility, in opposition to sin.

Free will has nothing to do with accepting truth if truth was given to us as a set of indisputable facts. Think of math for example. Can some deny the rules of mathematics because s/he has free will? No. Could God offer us the truth in term of set of facts that all understand and agree upon considering the fact the He is omniscient? Yes. Why He did’t do that? I don’t know.

 

[Bahman]

There are too many branches in this conversation . So I’m cutting it back to the last one. Satan and his crew are strong because they know us, they know our weaknesses and they know exactly how to tempt us. But we can’t duck our own responsibility by blaming every evil we do on them. Ultimately, it’s our own choice, we are not Satan’s puppets any more than we are God’s puppets. As for why Satan is free, you’d have to ask God that question.

So you are not offering anything new.

 

[Bahman]

You don’t know people very well, then…

I know people. They don’t deny the rules of math. There are some who know more and some who know less. That is it.

Because we’re given an entire life on earth to do so.

But we are not given the truth otherwise we all would agree upon.

More to the point, your objection is a reasonable one: if God wants us to accept Him while we can make a choice of our own free will and live it out in the way we live our life, then what good would it do to see Him in all His glory? Like you said, it would seem to be impossible to say ‘no’ to God face-to-face (if, that were, we were able to choose following death). If that were the way things went, then all this – creation, Jesus, the Church – would be for nothing: we’d see Him in heaven and be compelled to say ‘yes’. That’s not ‘love’, that’s ‘coersion’… and that’s not what God’s all about.

(To be fair, though, I don’t think people are capable of making a choice once they’re separated from their bodies. They exist and are aware, but cannot choose. )

There is no force involved if we see God and accept Him.

 

[Bahman]

You did not ask…

Sin and error of individuals

(but that is off topic)

Sin has nothing to do with understanding of truth. Error of individuals is the result of deficiency in a teaching. Take the example of math. Do people agree on rules of math? Yes.

 

[seagal]

Free will has nothing to do with accepting truth if truth was given to us as a set of indisputable facts. Think of math for example. Can some deny the rules of mathematics because s/he has free will? No. Could God offer us the truth in term of set of facts that all understand and agree upon considering the fact the He is omniscient? Yes. Why He did’t do that? I don’t know.

I’ve already offered some examples of how people will ignore the truth even when confronted with it. People can and do ignore truth all the time. I would add you to the list. We’re telling you the truth and you won’t accept it. Not all truth is like math but you refuse to see that fact.

So you are not offering anything new.

Nothing but the truth, which always existed. And which you deny.

 

[Vico]

Free will has nothing to do with accepting truth if truth was given to us as a set of indisputable facts. Think of math for example. Can some deny the rules of mathematics because s/he has free will? No. Could God offer us the truth in term of set of facts that all understand and agree upon considering the fact the He is omniscient? Yes. Why He did’t do that? I don’t know.

Adam and Eve were given gifts of sanctifying grace, infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality before the Fall, and lost them for humanity by sin.

 

[Bahman]

I’ve already offered some examples of how people will ignore the truth even when confronted with it. People can and do ignore truth all the time. I would add you to the list. We’re telling you the truth and you won’t accept it. Not all truth is like math but you refuse to see that fact.

Do all people along the glob agree on math as a set of indisputable fact? Yes. Why people are so scattered when it comes to truth? Simply because what we receive as truth is deficious.

Nothing but the truth, which always existed. And which you deny.

I am constantly search the truth and I found very little.

 

[Bahman]

Adam and Eve were given gifts of sanctifying grace, infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality before the Fall, and lost them for humanity by sin.

Do you mean that Adam and Eve knew the truth? If yes why Jesus didn’t offer the truth to us?

 

[Gorgias]

I know people. They don’t deny the rules of math.

You’ve never seen two mathematicians argue, then…

But we are not given the truth otherwise we all would agree upon.

It’s wonderful that you have the kind of faith in humanity that believes that if – oh, just if! – people had a set of objective, undeniable facts in front of them, we’d all agree and we’d all get along and we’d all hug and sing Kumbaya. I’ve seen too much disagreement and disagreeability in my half century to think that this is the case. People will disagree and debate and deny… even if the facts are right there in front of them.

There is no force involved if we see God and accept Him.

There’s a famous line from the ‘Godfather’ movies. Don Corleone looks at a person and says, “I’m gonna make him an offer he can’t refuse.” The implication is that he’s not offering a choice at all – there’s only one outcome, and the person has no real choice in the matter.

God tells us that He wishes us to choose Him of our own volition. He sent us His son to facilitate the opportunity for us to make that choice. If, at the end of our lives, we saw God in all His glory, there would be no choice – it’d be the “offer we can’t refuse.” If that were the case, then God would have told us we can choose, but then, ultimately, there would be no choosing at all. In fact, God would be a monster – allowing us to suffer and feel pain, and then, at the end, just saying, “psych! It wasn’t real! I made it all up! Now… say ‘yes’!”

Rather, God does allow us to make a choice while we’re able to do so of our own volition. Because we make a choice willingingly, that choice has value and meaning.

 

[seagal]

Do all people along the glob agree on math as a set of indisputable fact? Yes. Why people are so scattered when it comes to truth? Simply because what we receive as truth is deficious.

You keep citing math as the ultimate in truth. Do you not accept truth as revealed in other sciences? Numbers are a very special abstract truth, but even in that field you’ll find disagreement.

I am constantly search the truth and I found very little.

You should listen to John Lennox, a Christian apologist and a Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford. Maybe you can learn something from a person who understands truth in mathematics and can also accept truth in Christianity