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PaulDupre
Guest
When addressing a General Conference of the church in their capacity as prophets, seers and revelators? They should be more careful, since Mormons tend to believe and act on everything they say.
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PaulDupre
Guest
The seed of Lehi was mixed with the seed of Ishmael, whose family accompanied them from Jerusalem to the New World, and whose daughters Lehi’s sons married. They were all Hebrews - no Asians.
Thanks to Jash for reminding me of this.
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Jash
Guest
Clearly you do not understand what steel does once left to the elements.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
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PaulDupre
Guest
Clearly you have never visited a steel factory. The heaps of slag produced as a by-product of steel production are indestructable. If there was a steel industry providing weapons and tools to hundreds of thousands of Nephites in the ancient Americas, the remains of such industry would be hard to miss.
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PaulDupre
Guest
So let’s see…every boy who grew up in Germany and was drafted into the German army at age 17 was a Nazi?
Dear Lord, please let investigators in Germany read bukowski’s posts! Please!
For your info, young private Ratzinger, from a staunchly anti-Nazi family, deserted the German army at the first opportunity and surrendered to American forces.
But you knew that, didn’t you?
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Sue_Burton
Guest
It was not so long ago that archeologists made the same claim about the existance of King David, and in text books it was written he probably never existed, but then they recently uncovered a non Jewish source that proves King David did exist. Much of the Middle East cannot be dug, either because other places are built there are because they cannot get permission. A lot of discoveries have been made that shows historical proofs of the Bible, especially the Book of Kings. And as it seems there is a great deal of BC historian writings that make references to things that existed that we no longer have. For instance, the main principle we use to list the chronology of ancient kings in Egypt comes from a 3rd century BC Egytpian priest. He and many others who had no regard for the Jews, mention Joseph and Moses and the Exodus. Yet we are all taught there is no evidence. However while we have many references to writings and snippet come from the writings of the ancients, we do not have the whole works others refer too or make reference too. It is the same with the parting of the Red Sea, two independant archeologists teams and I am not speaking of Ron, because these went under well after Ron died, found chariots and wheels and they stretch from one end of the sea to another, they also found a strange path under the sea, which is alien to the enviroment of the sea bed, which in every other area is full of deep ditches and caverns and can not be walked on. Then we have the discovery of the burial place of Goliath. Thing is that every so often there are new finds. And we know many important finds have been lost because ancient historians with no religious connection or motives,describe them. For instance the stone that was supposed to be large that lists generations from Noah’s grandson. In a dig in Egypt geologists and archeologists argued on age of things. One find that has never been revealed was stone tablets that list nsmes of slaves and many from the book of Numbers are written there. The list was published and then withdrawn, the other two tablets were never published. My source is the geologists who were on site and part of the discovery. No one has refuted the discovery, but no one has explained them either.
If you read what was written before Jericho was discovered, how there was no evidence that Jericho ever existed, the story is a myth ect, then came the find and the words changed. There are a lot of discoveries that never see the light of day, others misinterpreted, other things that have not yet been found but will be found at some point. Why does no one state that there was no star of Bethlehem? because ancient non christian writings tell of the star. Josephus saved his own skin by attributing the star to the prophesy and then stating it had been fulfilled by the coming of the Roman Emperor. We need to look at what evidence we have got, and all of it. Some of the so called wise seem to ignore new finds like they do not exist, why is that?
Sue
If you read what was written before Jericho was discovered, how there was no evidence that Jericho ever existed, the story is a myth ect, then came the find and the words changed. There are a lot of discoveries that never see the light of day, others misinterpreted, other things that have not yet been found but will be found at some point. Why does no one state that there was no star of Bethlehem? because ancient non christian writings tell of the star. Josephus saved his own skin by attributing the star to the prophesy and then stating it had been fulfilled by the coming of the Roman Emperor. We need to look at what evidence we have got, and all of it. Some of the so called wise seem to ignore new finds like they do not exist, why is that?
Sue
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PaulDupre
Guest
Okay, tell you what: you reject the parts of the bible before the time of King David due to lack of archaeological support, and I will reject the entire BoM for the same reason.
As archaeology proves the existence of each person and place in the bible prior to King David (which it surely will), you are obligated to confess it as true.
By the same token, if archaeology ever proves that anything or anyone in the BoM ever existed, I will confess that part of the BoM as true.
Fair enough?
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sambos671
Guest
I think its fair. However, I’ve becom an advid follower of the Book of Zelph. And I know its true based on the rules of Zelph plus there is achreological evidence for the Book of Zelph which is a cave drawing of Zelph. And there was no burning bussom.
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mfbukowski
Guest
I didn’t say he was a nazi-- I was using accusations that people make that he was a nazi as an analogy for the accusations you were making about out what people say about our authorities. I didnt say he was a nazi and I dont think he was. Grow up learn to read and understand the point being made instead of twisting twisting twisting . You could throw your back out or something.
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rugbyref
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rugbyref
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I’m sorry, how can compare 5000 yrs to only 200 yrs ago. And those places are taboo, sacred places where we have to get a special permission to explore. On the other hand, Joseph Smith location couldn’t be located.
I think with all the money that the Mormon have, it will take a week to find proof of what happend.
I think with all the money that the Mormon have, it will take a week to find proof of what happend.
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PaulDupre
Guest
I also bear testimony that I have rolled the dice and found (after several tries) that the Book of Zelph is true and that Josh Anderson is a true prophet and I should send him all my money.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Not only that, but early Mormon leaders had many visions revealing that the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra, NY, where Joseph said he found the gold plates, is full of rooms of metal plates and Nephite artifacts. These early LDS leaders even claimed to have walked through the side of the hill into these rooms and seen and handled the treasure with their own hands!
Why doesn’t the LDS Church excavate the Hill Cumorah?
Could it be because there’s really nothing there?
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Sue_Burton
Guest
I would not read it at all. I wrote to do with this topic about finds and things that show much of the Bible, there is none of this for Mormon book. If you read it then when you read Sacred Scripture your mind will be boggled. If not from God then from who? And if from the wrong spirit a chance of harm to your soul. I have the book and wont read it, it takes you far away from Scripture. The fruit is not good, history of even sexual immorality. I would not go there.
Sue
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djconklin
Guest
- That depends on which tell they looked. There are literally hundreds of tells and only some have been explored. That’s why in arcahaelogy they say: “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” (Also applies when looking for WMD’s! ;0)
- If you start with a preconception as to when the Exodus occurred (1450 B.C… or 1250 B.C.) then you are going to “find” differing evidence.
Please name them with a source where they said that.
Name these archaeologists that say we are lacking the evidence.
It was because in the experiences of Abraham the Bible talks about the Hittite Empire that people clamed in the late 1800’s that because we knew nothing about such an empire that therefore the Bible was a myth. And then the archaeologists found it. Kind of odd that the Bible got that right, but everything else is supposedly wrong? What are the odds?
Along the northern coast where most of the trade routes were, yes. But, further south, no.
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Sue_Burton
Guest
Virtually every culture has a flood myth. One of the challenges of archaeology, is trying to determine where, and when, the flood took place, for the specific culture. Are two flood myths from different cultures depicting the same event, or two different events? Are the floods global catastrophes, or local catastrophes?
Geological data supports the hypothesis that the floods were local catastrophes. Is the flood myth of First Nations in Central America that of the Bering land bridge falling, or of the Black Sea filling up, or Euphrates river flooding, the creation of the Gulf of Mexico, or something else?
In answer to this one has to also wonder how much personal belief affects conclusions of finds and evidence? Quite a bit. Some who lean towards athiesm, date the Gospels from 70 AD onwards, because prophesies contained in them occurred, and as they do not believe in prophesy, the books had to be written after the events prophesied. It is the same with finds in regard to the flood. Creationist Verses ect. Fact is that there have been so many new findings that point to a universal flood that now is being explained as something happening that brought about a huge melt down of the ice age. Reason for this that since 2000 AD there has been large ancient ruins uncovered many of our great oceans, the Black Sea being only one. This shows that these oceans were not always there. Middle east, China, Japan, India, and other places these underwater cities have been found and the finds filmed. So now they view changes and leans not towards the Bible but towards explaining that all these myths refer to an event that buried these cities in water and formed or extended oceans. It is the same thing with the Gospels. A discovery of the Jesus Papyrus in Egypt, which is a large portion of the Gospel of Matthew has been dated to AD 43. Now this undoes the dates previously given for this Gospel. But then when you think about it, only the Gospel of John records the death of Peter. And even the Book of Acts written after Luke, ends without mentioning the martydom of Paul. May be because they were written before Paul was put to death. John we know was written later because he mentions the death of Peter. Yet, despite this find, in our schools the same text books are being used that teaches the old system of dating the Gospel and the knowledge of the find is ignored, in the field of education.
However while we have a lot of support for Biblical historical accuracy in many areas of Scripture, we have none for the mormons book. The Bible itself was never meant to be a history book, but a book teaching us holiness, and spiritual lessons. God says He made the heavens and the earth, but He does not say how He did this. The Mormons practice a way of life many find immoral, that is the preparing of young girls being picked out for brides, the number of wives for one man. King Soloman is said to have had many wives, but the Bible does not say this is right. However things were different then, and many perceive a political motive for marriage to maintain peace. But this is not the way Jesus taught us. The Book of Mormans and how it came to be comes from one source, Joseph Smith, as surely as the while revelations of Islam came from the one testimony, Mohammed, but the Bible comes from how many sources? if the number of witnesses that make up our Bible were used in a court of law to determine the guilt of a crime, then the crime would be deemed proved.
Geological data supports the hypothesis that the floods were local catastrophes. Is the flood myth of First Nations in Central America that of the Bering land bridge falling, or of the Black Sea filling up, or Euphrates river flooding, the creation of the Gulf of Mexico, or something else?
In answer to this one has to also wonder how much personal belief affects conclusions of finds and evidence? Quite a bit. Some who lean towards athiesm, date the Gospels from 70 AD onwards, because prophesies contained in them occurred, and as they do not believe in prophesy, the books had to be written after the events prophesied. It is the same with finds in regard to the flood. Creationist Verses ect. Fact is that there have been so many new findings that point to a universal flood that now is being explained as something happening that brought about a huge melt down of the ice age. Reason for this that since 2000 AD there has been large ancient ruins uncovered many of our great oceans, the Black Sea being only one. This shows that these oceans were not always there. Middle east, China, Japan, India, and other places these underwater cities have been found and the finds filmed. So now they view changes and leans not towards the Bible but towards explaining that all these myths refer to an event that buried these cities in water and formed or extended oceans. It is the same thing with the Gospels. A discovery of the Jesus Papyrus in Egypt, which is a large portion of the Gospel of Matthew has been dated to AD 43. Now this undoes the dates previously given for this Gospel. But then when you think about it, only the Gospel of John records the death of Peter. And even the Book of Acts written after Luke, ends without mentioning the martydom of Paul. May be because they were written before Paul was put to death. John we know was written later because he mentions the death of Peter. Yet, despite this find, in our schools the same text books are being used that teaches the old system of dating the Gospel and the knowledge of the find is ignored, in the field of education.
However while we have a lot of support for Biblical historical accuracy in many areas of Scripture, we have none for the mormons book. The Bible itself was never meant to be a history book, but a book teaching us holiness, and spiritual lessons. God says He made the heavens and the earth, but He does not say how He did this. The Mormons practice a way of life many find immoral, that is the preparing of young girls being picked out for brides, the number of wives for one man. King Soloman is said to have had many wives, but the Bible does not say this is right. However things were different then, and many perceive a political motive for marriage to maintain peace. But this is not the way Jesus taught us. The Book of Mormans and how it came to be comes from one source, Joseph Smith, as surely as the while revelations of Islam came from the one testimony, Mohammed, but the Bible comes from how many sources? if the number of witnesses that make up our Bible were used in a court of law to determine the guilt of a crime, then the crime would be deemed proved.
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lhk0pd
Guest
They can find no evidence is because there is none.You would think if a battle as Large as portrayed by the BOM what over a million participants there would be all kinds of evidence.But alas none to be found.The truth of the matter is when who ever was writing the BOM they had no idea at that time we would have the technology to prove or disprove there claims at that time in history.Personaly i think it was started out as a prank that grew into a opportunity.
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djconklin
Guest
Playing devil’s advocate: what kind of evidence would you expect to find?
The critics of Christianity and the Bible use that same argument about the Exodus.
The critics of Christianity and the Bible use that same argument about the Exodus.
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lhk0pd
Guest
**Where i live in the southwestern Kansas farmers have plowed up Spanish helmets and swords and there was no where or even close to a Million of Cortez’s men more like a few hundred.**Also in the midwest they keep finding tools and weapons used by the native tribes that go back hundreds of years and once again no highly populated concentration of people and no where close to a million.Common sense tells you that for the period of time it all supposedly happened there would be some traces.At some point in history will they because there is no proof start saying it was the ancient Mayan civilizations and i’m thinking i’ve heard that thinking already.
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djconklin
Guest
I’d be interested in hearing more about these Spanish helmets and swords found in Kansas. It is highly unlikely that they could have come from Cortés and his man because, (as best I know) he never went north of Mexico. Perhaps Coronado who did reach eastern Kansas?
And I’d really like to hear more about any intelligent scholar in the field denying that the Mayans ever existed.
And I’d really like to hear more about any intelligent scholar in the field denying that the Mayans ever existed.
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