How come the Latin bishops weren't able to ignite the Holy Fire, but Eastern bishops were?

[Margaret_Ann]

You can’t become Orthodox simply because of this event.

The Catholic Church was founded by Our Lord Himself. Orthodoxy started in 1054 with the mutual excommunications of Michael Cerularius and Cardinal Humberto. This is not polemics but historical fact.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Orthodoxy started in 1054 with the mutual excommunications of Michael Cerularius and Cardinal Humberto. This is not polemics but historical fact.

Ummm, not so much. The Eastern Church has always been the first community of Christians. Ask any Orthodox.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

A few years ago Pope Francis said the Catholic Church would be prepared to accept a fixed Easter, apparently referring to the proposal by some Protestant churches to move Easter to the first Sunday in April. I suspect that would be divisive.

That would be a horrible idea. If we are to capitulate to any other tradition’s Computus we should embrace that of the East since, you know, it was actually determined by an Ecumenical Council when we were all one Church! No more new Protestantesque novelty. We’ve had enough for a century!

 

[Vico]

The Eastern Orthodox have a tradition in the church of Jerusalem where the bishop will invoke a Holy Fire and it will miraculously appear. …

Some said that the Holy Fire is not a miracle but produced by certain chemical elements.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Fatima is not a “miracle held with respect” by the Church - though it may be by many individual Catholics.

A declared miracle, which is Fatima, whose participants , 1 is a blessed, 2 are Saints, Is very respected by Holy Mother Church. The Catholic Church that is.

Being free to believe in this miracle, or not, is a seperate topic.

So you haven’t answered my questions…

 

[BenSinner]

People seem to be hung up on whether it’s a real miracle or not.

The point of my OP is even if this was a natural phenomenon, isn’t it at least a little concerning that through the thousands of years this ceremony was done, the one year where a Catholic patriarch did it, it didn’t work (or at the very best, they had to do a penance and wait the next day)?

The other time it didn’t work, it was done by a Muslim.

Isn’t that a pretty big coincidence?

 

[babochka]

Many contend that it is neither a miracle nor a natural phenomenon.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...y-of-Jerusalems-Holy-Fire-comes-to-light.html

 

[twf]

That’s not historical fact. The Latin Church and the various Eastern Churches both predate the schism. The Eastern Churches had their own Liturgy, praxis, and laws long before the schism. Little to nothing changed for the average Joe faithful on either side immediately after the schism… it was a dispute between bishops. From an objective perspective, it would be more fair to say that the Orthodox Churches were in communion with Rome for the first thousand years…not that they didn’t exist.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

which if I understand it correctly

If, being the word in play here.
Again, your statement

you are concerned

Shows repeated lack of clarity in objective interpretation.
And an erroneous, subjective reinvention of meaning in your conclusions.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Not so. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself and has an unbroken line of Popes from St. Peter to the present. All the particular churches acknowledged Rome as the first see. Even when St. John the Theologian was still alive, Pope St. Clement handed down his letter to the Corinthians. You’d think they would appeal to St. John who was the last of the Apostles.

Also, if you look at the First Ecumenical Council which gave us the first part of the Creed, it mentions the “…Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.” Ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia.

Furthermore, there are divisions within Orthodoxy. Most accept the first 7 ecumenical councils, some accept the first three or even only the first one. Yet they are all considered Orthodox.

So how can Orthodoxy claim that it is the true Church when they can’t even agree on the Person of Christ?

The Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ. He Himself will preserve it to the end of time.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

There is only one Church and that is the Catholic Church. Byzantium was no man’s land until Constantine moved the capital of the Empire to his city I.e. Constantinople while the Pope was still the acknowledged head of the Church and all disputes were settled by him. Read the letters of St. John Chrysostom and St. Cyril of Alexandria appealing to the Popes of their day.

 

[twf]

The Byzantine Church very much existed at the time of the schism. That same Byzantine Church existed before and after the schism. It was in communion with Rome previously… but it didn’t become something new or different after the schism. It’s not comparable to the reformation where entire new ecclesiastical communities were established.
You do realize that the Catholic Church recognizes that the Orthodox Churches are true Churches? That’s because they existed as true Churches even while in full communion with Rome before the schism.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Yes I know that the Catholic Church recognizes the Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches (the Oriental Orthodox I don’t know ).

From East to West, the Catholic Church was united until 1054. Prior to that, the only serious schism (outside of the Christological and Mariological controversies which were settled by the first seven ecumenical councils) was the Photian schism in the late 800s. That was resolved and the Church was united again.

The schism of 1054 lasts to the present day even though Pope Leo IX and Michael Cerularius were on good terms with one another. Pope Paul VI and Athenagoras mutually lifted the excommunications but they are still not in union with the Holy See.

 

[twf]

Yes I know that the Catholic Church recognizes the Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches (the Oriental Orthodox I don’t know ).

Yes, the Catholic Church fully recognizes the apostolic succession / sacraments of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. In fact, Pope St. John Paul II signed a common declaration on Christology with both the Coptic and Syriac Orthodox Churches.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It is a miracle held with respect , therefore we do not degrade it, such as others don’t come here and degrade Fatima or any of our miracles.

It’s a bit hard to give credence to something denounced by a Pope.

 

[BoomerangToo]

The point of my OP is even if this was a natural phenomenon, isn’t it at least a little concerning that through the thousands of years this ceremony was done, the one year where a Catholic patriarch did it, it didn’t work (or at the very best, they had to do a penance and wait the next day)?

The other time it didn’t work, it was done by a Muslim.

Isn’t that a pretty big coincidence?

NO. It’s fake. Only the Greek priests know the secret of the illusion. That’s why only they can do it. Get it? If it was real, they would allow cameras in there to verify, but they don’t. Contrast that with the Catholic Church, which allowed the Shroud of Turin to be examined upside down and sideways.

 

[Seeksadvice]

Oh this thing…

Long before I looked at the Catholic Church, I talked with a Greek Orthodox guy about this “miracle”. I asked him the following: when a magician is getting ready to do a “trick,” what does he/she do? A: He/she makes a very elaborate demonstration of there being nothing ‘up the sleeve’ so-to-speak. What does he/she do that? A: To draw the audience’s attention away from the real thing that is ‘up the sleeve.’

If this is the thing I’m thinking of, they strip down naked, etc. They make a really big show of how little they have to hide. Sound familiar?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s been claimed that the Greeks just smuggle in a lamp.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...y-of-Jerusalems-Holy-Fire-comes-to-light.html

Also in 2002 it was reported that the Greeks and Armenians got into a “brawl” over the fire and the Armenian had to relight his fire with his cigarette lighter. This really isn’t sounding like something that comes from God, to me.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ets-Orthodox-rivalry-ablaze-in-Jerusalem.html

 

[Roseeurekacross]

If you accept that politely denying the liklihood of a cherished miracle here or at Fatima is not “degrading” but in fact perfectly reasonable and acceptable to the Vatican and not a problem then we are agreed.
Though it is confusing why you felt the need to post about that in the first place if you do agree.

Again, I see a flaw in the comprehension you are using in reading posts. For you to assume so much , spread over the length of this thread, from this post

People discount this like people discount Fatima

Begs the question why you are putting such a subjective interpretive meaning on it. And on subsequent posts.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Which Pope has denounced it.

And again, we are , here at CAF, called to respect the culture and customs of other religious groups.
This is a huge deal for them. That is what is to be respected.

We don’t go around disrespecting their traditions. Is it real? Who knows. Was it ever real, who knows. It’s a very ancient tradition.

I am reminded of the Christian prayer to Saint Joseph, supposedly found in Jerusalem, in either the Sepulchre or another site, 50 years or so after Jesus had undergone His passion and Resurrection. That prayer has been handed down through the centuries, with the details of its finding.
Was the prayer really found and written by x , y or z. . We have no way of knowing.

It’s also like medjugore, Is it real, was there ever any truth to it? Perhaps initially, perhaps not. We must wait for our Church to make a decision about an event in our Church. But still people, the vast majority Catholic , flock to it in millions .

And on whether our Church declares something a miracle or not, of another religious group, we are reminded on the ongoing miracles of the Blessed Mother appearing at Zeitoun, Egypt.
The declaring, authenticity and earthly scope of this set of apparitions and accompanying miracles was left, by our Magisterium, to the Church in Egypt and the head of their Church, to validate, or not.