How come the Latin bishops weren't able to ignite the Holy Fire, but Eastern bishops were?

[Tis_Bearself]

As (name removed by moderator) in Post 53 above said,

I am setting aside the fact that the news coverage of this event a few years ago in 2002 reported that the Armenian and Greek clerics got into a brawl at the ceremony and the police had to be called.
Does this sound like something that is coming from God?

 

[Cruciferi]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
“Where’s the lighter fluid?”

:man_shrugging:t2:“Don’t ask me…”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I actually would very much like this to be coming from God, because I love all those OT stories about how God zapped down from heaven and lit the prophet’s sacrifice on fire while ignoring the altar to Baal, but I just have my doubts.
I’m sorry

 

[dochawk]

hould embrace that of the East since, you know, it was actually determined by an Ecumenical Council when we were all one Church!

Actually, the council set the astronomical determinations, and afterwards Alexandria (one of the five Holy Sees) made the 28 year tables.

The Gregorian calendar calculation is also based on tables, but with a much longer cycle. It also misses the correct Sunday from time to time, but very rarely.

My preference would be to drop the tables, and do the calculations from Jerusalem, at which point East & West would come up with the same date.

hawk

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We can talk to people coming back from medjugore, and tell them it’s all fake, or listen to and affirm any faith experience they have from it.

Medjugorje is not approved by the church, so we would be foolish to “affirm any faith experience they had from it” when the Pope might issue a negative pronouncement about it.

In any event, this thread is not about someone posting they had a wonderful faith experience at the Holy Fire ceremony. It’s about an OP who thinks it is a miracle from God and has decided on that basis that the Orthodox faith is more “correct” than the Catholic faith. Now, there may be many legitimate reasons for someone to prefer the Orthodox faith, but using this as the basis is rather weak.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Exactly, it’s not approved, however that doesn’t stop the millions of pilgrims and conversions.

We can’t simply say to someone who found God on a trip there, what they experienced is not real

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I see you don’t wish to drop it

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Exactly, it’s not approved, however that doesn’t stop the millions of pilgrims and conversions.

We can’t simply say to someone who found God on a trip there, what they experienced is not real

If Medjugorje was not Roman Catholic and somebody was going to leave the Church because they went there and experienced something, what would you say to them?

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I would say, if they found God, that’s wonderful. And watch the growth of their faith journey. And be there to guide, answer and have discussion on all manner of theology with them.

If an atheist friend of mine found God, accepted Jesus as the author of God the Father’s salvation history, I would absolutely rejoice with them. Here’s a concrete example, my farrier, born Catholic, rejected God and the church, got into some bad experiences. Now he has found God and is alive with passion for God. We discuss God non stop when he is out.
We listen to each other’s points . Yes he raises the typical anti catholic rhetoric.
It is part of his faith journey home.

If I were to reject his ideas, Passion and faith , I would be a very judgemental fundamentalist non ecumenical Catholic who refuses to allow God to shine through me

Here’s something for you. People are touched and convert or find faith again at these places, I can see the work of the Holy Spirit in gifting people faith, especially at th Holy Sepulchre.
Do you really believe that can not happen.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If they are truly having a faith experience, they need to also accept or somehow deal with the fact that their faith does not hinge on whether a “miracle” - which might, in the case of the Holy Fire, be a magician’s effect created by humans, based on all the evidence including Pope Gregory’s statement - is taking place before their eyes. The true miracle is taking place within them.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

My preference would be to drop the tables, and do the calculations from Jerusalem, at which point East & West would come up with the same date.

Which is still orders of magnitude better than picking some random Sunday in March or April completely divorced from tradition. I guarantee you, if the Pope were to change the Computus to a fixed Sunday on the solar calendar us Westerners would suddenly find ourselves with our own version of the “Old Calendarists”, and perhaps a global Christian controversy larger than that of the Quartodecimans.

 

[dochawk]

Which is still orders of magnitude better than picking some random Sunday in March or April completely divorced from tradition

Definitely.

In fact, it is the only proposal that actually complies with the dictates of the counsel setting the date! Neither the RC nor EO currently do this . . .

hawk

 

[BenSinner]

The claim that Pope Gregory condemed the miracle has been contested by historians. They claim he condemed the act of “advertising” it for economic gain.

User Paul - Skeptics Stack Exchange

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Hmmm, which is the more credible source to me, a Latin Rite Catholic?

(name removed by moderator), a Deacon of my church, whom I further know to be a well-educated and generally well-informed person?

Or some website called “skeptics.stackexchange.com” being pushed at me by some stranger on the Internet?



I’m going to have to give this some really deep thought over lunch.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

But then he isn’t trying to push the “I am right because my Church works miracles” line is he?

I have never met anyone who pushes this line.
Do you truly believe a church, any church, works miracles?
If they did push this line we immediately know this line comes from that prince of lies satan.

Who works miracles? There is only one answer.

God works miracles.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Why weren’t the Catholics able to do this? Does this mean Roman Catholicism is not the one true church?

This quote above ( which you have not credited to its author), does not equal this quote from you , below.

But then he isn’t trying to push the “I am right because my Church works miracles” line is he?

Again, comprehension, read and re-read very carefully. You have taken the first quote, of whomever said it, out of context, without linking to its post and thus author. That is important, so can all see who said it and why. Context!
You have then , erroneously attempted to use that authorless quote to back a very different point you made.

Content and context is everything.

Try again brother

 

[phil19034]

Also, is this proof that the Eastern Orthodox have the correct date for Easter and Catholics don’t?

Since this only happens in an EO church on EO’s Easter.

No. If anything, it’s just proof that the Patriarch of Jerusalem has the gift.

Remember, the Eastern Orthodox are considered to be part of the Church, they are simply out of communion with Rome. However, their Bishops are still granted the Gifts God has provided to them

 

[adgloriam]

@Roseeurekacross, you will notice that the recurrent tactic of @Lillypilly. Playing a “skeptic” doesn’t hide the true intention which boils down to disrespecting others beliefs. @Lillypilly either calls the “faithful” dumb and credulous, or calls the “church” a cheat for approving miracles they know are false. So look:

So, let’s just count explicit lies, insinuations, and accusations:

politely denying

Fatima is not a “miracle held with respect” by the Church

Perfectly acceptable Christian weakness

the celebrants are scamming or lying

typical of distanced, credulous faithful

using alleged miracles

you are belabouring

You are the one who has difficulty with discounters

Has it been proved there really is a miracle?

You are suggesting we only trust panels of Catholic doctors or their carefully chosen acquaintances

 

[Masihi]

The bishops and priests are searched before they enter the Church so there goes the claim of white phosphorus.

 

[Masihi]

Quite the opposite actually the Orthodox Church has remained the same, it was the Catholic Church who broke off with Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria.