How could a human individual not be a human person?

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I think it is alive but it doesn’t possess life. I don’t believe it is an independent life. It’s life is contingent. The heart doesn’t determine it’s own growth apart from the body it is a member of. Even a plant can do that. For that reason I can’t see a soul animating it at all.
This seems to be a contradiction in terms. How can something be animated while lacking an anima? It may lack a rational soul, as some argue, but to be alive and yet lacking a soul seems to contradict our working definitions of soul and life.
 
as recent experiments are pointing the way towards cloning without an ovum
OK references please.
If we cannot clone a chimp, and even Dolly the sheep took 500 attempts I severely doubt the long experimental bow you are drawing here to vindicate your unusual view will fly.
 
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This seems to be a contradiction in terms. How can something be animated while lacking an anima?
If left completely in it’s own power what would happen? Animation would stop. I think that is because the anima was artificial.
 
n case it bears repeating, I don’t believe the human genome is a person. I do hold that the human genome is one of the requirements for the “material form” of the human animal, but it is not sufficient in itself to be a human person.
Do you mean it’s presence in the zygote makes the zygote sufficiently organized to receive a rational soul?
 
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How can something be animated while lacking an anima? It may lack a rational soul, as some argue, but to be alive and yet lacking a soul seems to contradict our working definitions of soul and life.
The soul, like a black hole, is inferred by reason. While we can observe the effects (animations), we cannot observe the efficient cause (anima) for those effects, e.g., the cause for a hole in space or what makes a dead dog immediately different than a live dog. In reality, the soul and the black hole exist or do not exist whether we think they do or not. The soul and the black hole are objects of reason (not observation) and provide explanatory power for things we do observe.

A property of living things that we observe is self-movement. If it moves we infer a soul. Does the heart in a box evidence self-movement? To answer, one would have to pull the plugs, so to speak, and observe. When the heart no longer moves I think all would agree the heart is not living, But what if the heart does not immediately stop?

If the heart does not stop beating rhythmically then is that movement evidence of the heart’s soul? Or is it merely the inertia of the soul of the living being from whom that heart was taken slowly ebbing away? I think so. If the heart continues to beat but does so arhythmically then is not the movement we observe the disorganized movement of individual cells now moving according to their own nature? (Just as cardiac cells in a petri dish would move). If the heart’s movements are random then I believe the human soul, the organizing principle of those multiple organs that constitute a heart, is no longer present. The individual organs or cells are “now free to move about the cabin.”

Since a soul in cases of things that self-move is inferred, no one can prove that the soul is of one kind or another in the absence of additional evidence of sentience (animal) or reason (human). In the absence of proof of human life are we allowed to act as if there is no human life? Can we infer death just as we infer life? If we may then ought we to exercise extreme care before acting in a way that ends a life? Kreeft, the ethicist, asks, “Does the hunter who is uncertain whether the object in the bushes is a deer or a man have the right to shoot?”

I think the church teaches in the case of the beginnings of human life that science’s tentative (as are all scientific) conclusions never justify taking that life. But in the case of the end of human life the church allows medical science greater latitude. My understanding is that the teaching remains that death occurs when the soul departs. While the church does not allow science to apply its findings to determine the beginning of life as ever subsequent to conception, she does allow science to determine the end of life prior to the absence of the normal palpable signs of life.
 
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The zygote is a new and distinct individual of the human species. It is sufficiently organized to direct its own embryogenesis. It directs its own growth, differentiation, and development through its various stages. If it can do that, its well organized enough to receive a rational soul.
 
My understanding is that the teaching remains that death occurs when the soul departs.
This isn’t a teaching, it is a tautology or simply an arbitrary definition. If death is defined as “separation of body and soul” then what you just said was:

“separation of body and soul occurs when the soul departs.”

That doesn’t seem to tell us anything new.
 
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It could also be seen as 16 separate cells each one of which is sufficiently organised to direct its own embryogenesis separately from the others. But when they are kept in close contiguous and chemical contact by means of a little biological gelatine they prefer to work as a community - eventually deciding together to make but one human person. The material of one of them may become the gut, another the brain, another the legs. Or, like a torrent download with bits and bytes coming from different servers around the world, it might be a complete mix and match affair yet all eventually coming in to make a perfectly assembled file.

Its a community effort. Like they say, it takes a village to raise an embryo 😅.
Or not, if the 16 cells drift apart and act as hermits.
Regardless, a “hive” is not an individual person.

Strange that such an important thing as human “individualness” is left to the vagaries of a little biogelatine. That sounds like what amoeba do. Human zygotes may well be a form of human amoeba life. Which is pretty much what the Delayed Hominisation theory is about observing.
 
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Well, I am a village of 37.2 trillion cells, but only one person.
If you cannot see the difference in the ability of each of those 37 trillion cells to direct its own embryogenesis from each of the 16 zygote cells to direct theirs then we are not on planet Rational.
 
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Aren’t the sixteen cells being an individual? Sixteen cells are not each directing their own growth independent of the whole… Does the fact that they each have the potential to direct their own growth and be a human individual mean that they are?

Edit to correct. The sixteen cells are multipotent not totipotent.😴
 
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This [death occurs when the soul departs] isn’t a teaching, it is a tautology
Wrong, again … Are you Black or Blue? Or just sad.

It is both a teaching and a tautology.

The teaching: In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God. CCC 997

Look up logical tautology.
 
Your quoted sentence was the tautology.

The CCC states the usual secular Aristotelian definition of death and then states the soul goes to God. That is the teaching. Aristotle obviously had nothing to say on the matter of where the soul goes after death.

The CCC tells us something new, your quoted sentence didn’t.
 
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Your quoted sentence was the tautology.

The CCC states the usual secular Aristotelian definition of death and then states the soul goes to God. That is the teaching. Aristotle obviously had nothing to say on the matter of where the soul goes after death.

The CCC tells us something new, your quoted sentence didn’t.
Does it make a difference in regards of o-mlly’s point?
 
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Most of what he stated was good but speed wobbles began from “Can we infer death just as we infer life?” onwards methinks.

I think its pretty clear a beating heart in a box is an example of human life and has a material (vegetable/animal) type soul if provided the usual nutrition (oxygenated blood). Its cells don’t decay and it keeps functionally working. That’s life in my book. And working forward from philosophic first principles in this area these conclusions are fairly inescapable regardless of whether or not they accord with traditional current religious sentiment re personhood or immortal soul etc. These are things medievals never had to think about.

Clearly it has no intrinsic embryonic potentiality in the same way, as doesn’t our 37 trillion differentiated body cells.
 
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Does it make a difference in regards of o-mlly’s point?
Not at all. Trolling merely attempts to disrupt a thread. Not having depth, trollers wade into the shallow waters and splash about. Best thing to do is to ignore.
 
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Benadam:
Does it make a difference in regards of o-mlly’s point?
Not at all. Trolling merely attempts to disrupt a thread.
Please clean the glasses.
“Most of what he stated was good” is hardly trolling.

Most of us do not consider partial (let alone complete) disagreement with our own fallible views a breach of natural law.
 
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If the heart does not stop beating rhythmically then is that movement evidence of the heart’s soul? Or is it merely the inertia of the soul of the living being from whom that heart was taken slowly ebbing away? I think so.
Assuming that there is such a thing as “inertia of the soul” that is distinct from the action of the soul, which I’m not granting, how do we distinguish between the inertia of the soul and the continuing action of the soul? I argue that the soul continues to act in any body that is still living, because inertia is a kind of action of a certain form. Vital actions in the body are actions of the soul, and are signs that the soul is still informing the body. A ball that loses its form and becomes a block does not roll, even by inertia, because it has lost the rolling form. A body that has lost the soul does not live, even by inertia, because it has lost the living form.

You’ve written a lot of great stuff that will take more than 3500 characters to respond to; this is going to be a long response, sorry!

continued…
 
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If the heart continues to beat but does so arhythmically then is not the movement we observe the disorganized movement of individual cells now moving according to their own nature? (Just as cardiac cells in a petri dish would move).
In the interest of space and format I won’t go into a physiology lecture here but I’m happy to explain the details if they are needed. I will answer based on the physiological facts that I know, and you can ask me for more detail if you want it.

The beating of a heart requires organized movement of cells in coordination, even if the beating of the heart is arrhythmic (living humans suffer from arrhythmia intermittently and chronically, hence artificial pacemakers). If each cell were operating independently then you might have a point here, but the fact that there is a beat at all is indicative of coordinated action between cells, even if the action is not ultimately coordinated towards the health and life of a greater organism. If the cells of the heart were truly individual and uncoordinated then there would be no beat. I argue that the cells of the heart are still working towards the survival of a greater organism, but that this does not meet its end because the body has become so disorganized as to utterly frustrate the vital actions of this particular organ. In other words, the heart is still pumping for the body, but the body can’t receive the blood that the heart pumps; the same would be true in the case of an aortic rupture, where the heart continues to pump blood but the blood empties into the cavities of the body rather than pumping through the arteries.

In short, I would say that this is all evidence of the process of dissolution of the organism, but not evidence of actual death per se. The reason that I am not willing to say that this is evidence of actual death per se is that vital action continues in the body on an organized level, tissues cooperating with tissues, and not merely on the level of individual cells, and even if the cells continued living we would still have evidence of life. A dissolving organism is not yet dissolved, and the process can be reversed. We see this every time a heart stops beating and a the person is resuscitated. They were “dead” in that their vital organs ceased working together, and some ceased working altogether, and yet the same person wakes up and goes on living. I’ll assume we can all agree that the same soul animates a person after cardiac arrest as before, so I won’t argue that point here.

continued…
 
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If the heart continues to beat but does so arhythmically then is not the movement we observe the disorganized movement of individual cells now moving according to their own nature? (Just as cardiac cells in a petri dish would move).
The beating of a heart requires organized movement of cells in coordination, even if the beating of the heart is arrhythmic (living humans suffer from arrhythmia intermittently and chronically, hence artificial pacemakers). If each cell were operating independently then you might have a point here, but the fact that there is a beat at all is indicative of coordinated action between cells, even if the action is not ultimately coordinated towards the health and life of a greater organism. If the cells of the heart were truly individual and uncoordinated then there would be no beat. I argue that the cells of the heart are still working towards the survival of a greater organism, but that this does not meet its end because the body has become so disorganized as to utterly frustrate the vital actions of this particular organ. In other words, the heart is still pumping for the body, but the body can’t receive the blood that the heart pumps; the same would be true in the case of an aortic rupture, where the heart continues to pump blood but the blood empties into the cavities of the body rather than pumping through the arteries.

In short, I would say that this is all evidence of the process of dissolution of the organism, but not evidence of actual death per se. The reason that I am not willing to say that this is evidence of actual death per se is that vital action continues in the body on an organized level, tissues cooperating with tissues, and not merely on the level of individual cells, and even if the cells continued living we would still have evidence of life. A dissolving organism is not yet dissolved, and the process can be reversed. We see this every time a heart stops beating and a the person is resuscitated. They were “dead” in that their vital organs ceased working together, and some ceased working altogether, and yet the same person wakes up and goes on living. I’ll assume we can all agree that the same soul animates a person after cardiac arrest as before, so I won’t argue that point here.
If the heart’s movements are random then I believe the human soul, the organizing principle of those multiple organs that constitute a heart, is no longer present.
Even arrhythmic beats aren’t random, and the heart in the box is most certainly beating randomly. The whole point of the “heart in the box” is so that the physician can analyze the heart for continuous, life-sustaining functionality. If the “heart in the box” beat randomly then it would be no better than a frozen heart for transplant, but evidence has shown that we are able to actually monitor the health of the heart tissue by its electrical rhythm while it is in this machine. In short, the heart in the box demonstrates organized life activity while removed from the rest of the donor’s body, and it is kept observably vital throughout the process.

cont…
 
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