How could a moral God allow suffering?

[francisc147]

I ask the same question, and I even add directly as if talking to God, “the world You made is not actually beautiful by all of these events and situations” What a surprise Im riding in a bus going in an early morning, I saw the mountain glittering like a flourescents bulb, Then suddenly, I feel strange, vibrating, increasing pulse, directly in my heart, and my eyes, flows so much water that I never intentionally to cry, And I say to my self, God Im so sorry, You even read read my mind, then I feel, everything is beautiful, even the crazy one, there is a purpose, that I can not imagine, God made it to happen, I just simply believe, and He make me believe there is something beyond everything, beyond my little mind. God please touch those Thomas like me.

 

[oldcelt]

The evidence is there, but not under your rubric. I’ll repeat myself: your method, for this purpose, is flawed. It is third person. Third person evidence tells us nothing intrinsic to the matter. For example. E=MC2 tells us nothing in comparison to an atomic explosion. Scientism would seek reduce God to an abstraction that can then be examined at a *safe *distance. However, the safest distance to God is very close.

I’ll cut to the chase because I have to leave. As a professional historian I examine all evidence that I can find, try to the best of my ability to weigh it without bias and eventually reach a conclusion relative to the subject. My conclusion, may be impeccably reasoned, but it is still subjective. Whether people believe what I have written is a matter of their analysis of my work.

God cannot be examined up close; it is a physical and intellectual impossibility . People are required to look at whatever is available in the written form and eventually draw their own conclusions on the existence and nature of any deity. They may claim to know the truth, but that conclusion is purely subjective. It is their belief, their faith.

Throughout my 50 some years as a Catholic Christian, certain question gnawed away at me. I applied the method I use for my historical research and reached the conclusion I did.
I still believe in a deity, but if I applied the scientific method, that deity would also come up short. I am living under faith, just as you and most people on this board

 

[ajecphotos]

What about all the evidence by the saints, etc etc?

 

[printmaker]

God cannot be examined up close; it is a physical and intellectual impossibility . People are required to look at whatever is available in the written form and eventually draw their own conclusions on the existence and nature of any deity. They may claim to know the truth, but that conclusion is purely subjective. It is their belief, their faith.

… I am living under faith, just as you and most people on this board.

You’re making a set of assertions that seem to be contradictory. You are admitting certain limitations in your method that lead you to the conclusion that you can’t know, so you decide you will operate on faith of the deist variety. You seem to be saying you have exhausted all the possibilities based on your method and come up short, yet you are certain that all other methods, which you haven’t tried, will obtain the same results.

Do you see the contradiction? “I don’t know, but there is one thing I am certain of, and that is that you don’t know.” You might want to revisit that.

 

[tonyrey]

I’ll dig up the studies that man is an inherently moral creature.

Morality has no rational foundation in an amoral universe.

The bloodshed throughout history is an example that we are also highly territorial and pack animals.

The use of the term “animals” gives the game away. Deism obviously dispenses with the concept of persons who are morally responsible for their behaviour - which would be inconsistent with belief in an amoral deity. How could creatures possibly be superior to their Creator?!

BTW, there is not one jot of credible evidence for any god, including yours.

Your appreciation of the value of life is compelling evidence for the existence of a loving Father - unless you wish to retract your previous statements about being grateful for having been born (into a world dominated by pointless suffering…).

All religions have holy books, early founders, philosophers, etc. Only one can be right, and all may be wrong.

You are overlooking the fact that there is a consensus among all religions that persons are not merely animals but have a spiritual nature, a conscience and are morally responsible for their behaviour. A glance at the contents of The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley will enlighten you - if you have an open mind and are not too deeply entrenched in your negative outlook:

archive.org/details/perennialphilosp035505mbp

 

[Bradski]

Aside from the already apparent contradictions necessarily assumed in such a thing(like how could it even “evolve” without his sustaining and interacting with it…

I’m not sure you realise how brutal and unrelentingly cruel evolution is. If you did, then maybe you wouldn’t be so keen as to imply that God is running the show.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m not sure you realise how brutal and unrelentingly cruel evolution is. If you did, then maybe you wouldn’t be so keen as to imply that God is running the show.

If life is as atrocious as you imply you should agree with Schopenhauer that it would be better if no one had ever existed on this planet - and arrange for a swift exit rather than postpone the inevitable descent into oblivion…

 

[tonyrey]

I ask the same question, and I even add directly as if talking to God, “the world You made is not actually beautiful by all of these events and situations” What a surprise Im riding in a bus going in an early morning, I saw the mountain glittering like a flourescents bulb, Then suddenly, I feel strange, vibrating, increasing pulse, directly in my heart, and my eyes, flows so much water that I never intentionally to cry, And I say to my self, God Im so sorry, You even read read my mind, then I feel, everything is beautiful, even the crazy one, there is a purpose, that I can not imagine, God made it to happen, I just simply believe, and He make me believe there is something beyond everything, beyond my little mind. God please touch those Thomas like me.

A warm welcome to the forum!

It’s refreshing to read an appreciation of life after all the soul-destroying opinions of those who are obsessed with the tragedies in the world as if they outweigh the joy and happiness of the vast majority of ordinary people.

 

[Solus_vistor]

We can better comprehend infinity (in the quantitative sense) by visualising it as a huge (finite) number, but every mathematician will tell you that not all properties of finite numbers can by applied to an infinity (of whatever cardinality).

We can better comprehend God’s Infinity by “visualising” Him as a person (like you and I because it is only on this level that we can communicate with Him in prayer ) only “hugely” more intelligent and powerful. However, not every judgement - rational or moral - applicable to humans can be applied to God.

I can criticise a human creator, e.g. engineer, for including in his creation these or those things that to me look like shortcomings of his creation, but even that is pointless if I lack the necessary qualification and/or skills of that e.g. engineer. And it is more than pointless to criticise the Creator (of everything, including myself with my ability to criticise), for things - suffering, whether caused by other humans or nature - that I can have no idea of how the created world would look without them.

Is it fair that from among so many people buying a lottery ticket only one gets the major prize? Would it not be fairer if everybody who bought the ticket would win? We understand the absurdity of this because we understand how a lottery works. Do we really understand to the same level also how this world - again including ourselves with our free will - works?

 

[Bradski]

If life is as atrocious as you imply you should agree with Schopenhauer that it would be better if no one had ever existed on this planet - and arrange for a swift exit rather than postpone the inevitable descent into oblivion…

I find life quite refreshing personally so I’m looking forward to sticking around as long as possible. But do you really want to contemplate the untold agony and suffering over countless millions of years that enabled me to sit here and type that? It is literally unimaginable.

And incidentally, on another point…

I can see the benefit of praying for your enemies (maybe pray that they stop all that raping and pillaging for example or perhaps simply see the error of their ways) but sacrificing yourself for someone you don’t know? It seems to be a given that it’s a good thing to do. I certainly would for close family members (if all other options failed) as would possibly most people. But not many would do it for anyone else and for the life of me I can’t see a problem with that.

In fact, I’m sure my family would be mightily unimpressed if I swapped my life for another’s. Let’s face it, you have a responsibility to them as well as to yourself and I’d say that trumps all other considerations.

And loving your enemies? That’s meant to be a good thing? Hey, if it stops whatever problem there was in the first place which caused him to be my enemy, then all good. Otherwise…

 

[Amandil]

I’m not sure you realise how brutal and unrelentingly cruel evolution is. If you did, then maybe you wouldn’t be so keen as to imply that God is running the show.

Your point is irrelevant. Even if I did grant your argument it doesn’t negate God’s creative and sustaining action. God demonstrated that love is His son dying naked, beaten, scourged, and choking on his own bodily fluids until He died of asphyxiation.

 

[Amandil]

I find life quite refreshing personally so I’m looking forward to sticking around as long as possible. But do you really want to contemplate the untold agony and suffering over countless millions of years that enabled me to sit here and type that? It is literally unimaginable.

And incidentally, on another point…

I can see the benefit of praying for your enemies (maybe pray that they stop all that raping and pillaging for example or perhaps simply see the error of their ways) but sacrificing yourself for someone you don’t know? It seems to be a given that it’s a good thing to do. I certainly would for close family members (if all other options failed) as would possibly most people. But not many would do it for anyone else and for the life of me I can’t see a problem with that.

In fact, I’m sure my family would be mightily unimpressed if I swapped my life for another’s. Let’s face it, you have a responsibility to them as well as to yourself and I’d say that trumps all other considerations.

And loving your enemies? That’s meant to be a good thing? Hey, if it stops whatever problem there was in the first place which caused him to be my enemy, then all good. Otherwise…

Which says nothing about God and everything about atheism, namely the unabashed egocentrism prevalent in the belief system.

 

[Bradski]

Whatever evil which God does permit in necessarily purposed toward a good end, even if, according to your perspective, an action is “brutal” or “cruel”.

We’re not talking about evil. Evolution isn’t evil. But it is more cruel than you could possibly want to imagine. And you didn’t say that he simply permitted it. You said:

…without his sustaining and interacting with it.

So we have this unimaginable cruel system which, by your own admission, God is sustaining. And I’m really not sure what you mean by ‘your perspective’ on it being so brutal. I guarantee that not many people would have the stomach to actually watch a single event in action.

Just think of a young antelope being eaten alive by hyenas and taking an hour or more to die. Multiply that agony by the largest number you can conceive and you won’t come close to what it means.

And you really want to say that God organised it this way and has kept it going for billions of years?

Which says nothing about God and everything about atheism, namely the unabashed egocentrism prevalent in the belief system.

I’m sure you know thta atheism is not a belief system. But you haven’t explained why sacrificing oneself for others is always a good thing. And why I should always love my enemies. Don’t treat it as a given. Explain why…

 

[fred_conty]

Originally posted by Bradski
"And you really want to say that God organised it this way …

No God didn’t organize it that way at all. Mankind started in a paradise which God had fully intended to continue for them, which was without death and illness. It was planned to be very good. But man sinned and lost his paradise, and then death and illness came to be. It was because of man’s wickedness that we are in the thros of suffering today.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Bradski]

No God didn’t organize it that way at all. Mankind started in a paradise which God had fully intended to continue for them, which was without death and illness. It was planned to be very good. But man sinned and lost his paradise, and then death and illness came to be. It was because of man’s wickedness that we are in the thros of suffering today.

Then you need to argue your point with Amandil. He believes that God is directly involved and has been and is sustaining the whole process.

And in any case, you don’t really want me to believe that because of an event which was impossible if you accept that evolution is the means by which we arrived at this point (and you seem to believe that as you you suggest that God didn’t actually organise it himself) then almost every single creature, none of whom had anything at all to do with the original event, will die in abject terror and agony.

Do you believe that hyenas and eagles and snakes ate grass and buttercups before the fall?

 

[fred_conty]

Then you need to argue your point with Amandil. He believes that God is directly involved and has been and is sustaining the whole process.

And in any case, you don’t really want me to believe that because of an event which was impossible if you accept that evolution is the means by which we arrived at this point (and you seem to believe that as you you suggest that God didn’t actually organise it himself) then almost every single creature, none of whom had anything at all to do with the original event, will die in abject terror and agony.

Do you believe that hyenas and eagles and snakes ate grass and buttercups before the fall?

Thank you for your interest.

How God sustains us is that he supports every molecule in the universe. And we believe he is the cause of everything being here. And if he withdrew his support we would fall into non existence.
For that reason God sustains us at each and every moment.

I’m not sure I understand the second part of your response. But I think it had to do with evolution. That things couldn’t be the way I described them as also narrated in the first book of the bible, Genesis. That there was a paradise and that man was free of death and illness.

I believe the comment about the snake was that how could we be free of death because of the carnivous animals? Because man at that time had control over all nature including animals. Because nature itself was different in the sense that it was friendly to man. We can see something of that today when people have all kinds of animals as pets and are tame. It was that way at that time. But when man sinned against his creator, that is when hell broke lose on the planet and everything changed.

As far as evolution, which is a taboo topic on this website, that isn’t any problem. That still could have happened.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Bradski]

Let me ask a simple question:

Do you think that God could have organised matters so that we could have reached where we are now without there being so much suffering in the animal kingdom. Forget Man himself. We are paying for the Fall, as you put it. Apparently we have to suffer…

But is there a requirement that all creatures suffer monstrously over many millions of years? As far as I can understand, they don’t get another life after this one is torn from them, so what is the purpose of their suffering?

 

[Amandil]

We’re not talking about evil.

Did you pay attention to the title of the thread?

Evolution isn’t evil.

I’m not going to follow this rabbit trail of circular logic.

But it is more cruel than you could possibly want to imagine. And you didn’t say that he simply permitted it. So we have this unimaginable cruel system which, by your own admission, God is sustaining.

And I’m really not sure what you mean by ‘your perspective’ on it being so brutal. I guarantee that not many people would have the stomach to actually watch a single event in action.

Permitting something still requires an active will to permit it, not just some passive feeling. A Being who is omniscient by definition can see all ends and order events to work according to His designs, either by directly acting or permitting. The fact this, even if I grant your version of things, for the event to take place, for “natural selection” to happen, contingent beings must be given being and sustained in being to act.

Your heart continues to beat and you continue to draw breath into your lungs. How do you explain this. You’ll perhaps claim that it is merely the interaction of chemicals and bioelectrical signals in your body, yet what sustains those reactions? What moves them from potentiality to actuality to begin with? An infinite regress of causes we know is absurd.

I’m not even of the mind to buy the theory of evolution lock, stock, and barrel, especially when it takes the form of the fallacy “affirming the consequent”.

What would be “cruel” requires a rational will, animals do not have rational wills so they cannot be “cruel”. Therefore what whatever form “evolution” takes to proceed cannot have any such moral connotations, it just simply “is”.

Being a former atheist I’m well familiar of the tactic of trying to eat your cake and at the same time have it.

Just think of a young antelope being eaten alive by hyenas and taking an hour or more to die. Multiply that agony by the largest number you can conceive and you won’t come close to what it means.

And you really want to say that God organised it this way and has kept it going for billions of years?

If I granted your version of “evolution”(which I don’t), I’d still say “yes”. “Cruelty” by definition serves no purpose, obviously you hold to the idea that evolution serves a purpose, so again your trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth. Simply putting up a façade of morality because you think it will gain you something. It’s rather disingenuous.

I’m sure you know thta atheism is not a belief system.

Of course it is! I was an atheist; please refrain from trying to play word games. Atheism posits something, a belief that God and the supernatural does not exist, so spare me.

But you haven’t explained why sacrificing oneself for others is always a good thing. And why I should always love my enemies. Don’t treat it as a given. Explain why…

Are you a parent?

 

[oldcelt]

You’re making a set of assertions that seem to be contradictory. You are admitting certain limitations in your method that lead you to the conclusion that you can’t know, so you decide you will operate on faith of the deist variety. You seem to be saying you have exhausted all the possibilities based on your method and come up short, yet you are certain that all other methods, which you haven’t tried, will obtain the same results.

Do you see the contradiction? “I don’t know, but there is one thing I am certain of, and that is that you don’t know.” You might want to revisit that.

Revisit the facts of faith…why? I freely admit that I cannot prove the existence of the Deist God anymore than you can prove the existence of your God.

So far as admitting limitations to my method…does that surprise you? I am simply admitting to the fact when it comes to research on anything that we did not witness personally.

 

[oldcelt]

Permitting something still requires an active will to permit it, not just some passive feeling. A Being who is omniscient by definition can see all ends and order events to work according to His designs

You have just proven my point. The Christian God actively permits suffering to attain his designs…and that is atrocious. Thank you so much.

BTW, look up circular logic.