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tonyrey
Guest
From one extreme to the other! Both overlook the fact that we are capable of choosing what to believe and how to live…
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Nate123
Guest
Your objections are sound and require a good answers. I would like to thank you for standing up against the objections raised by our fellow Catholics and for easily dismantling them. Atheism is on the rise because of the false ideology that God “permits evil to bring good out of it.” The view is extremely harmful and it makes human life look worthless. As if we are not made in the image of God. Also the free will argument does not hold up even remotely. There are plenty of instances where our free will would not violated by an act of God. Catholics support such a view because they have no other way of defending the why of suffering." But little did they realize they are defending an idea of God who is not perfectly good and who is not perfectly opposed to evil. The atheist are right in rejecting a “god” that ought to be rejected. I will quote New Apologetics to give you an answer.
. " If God exists, he is omniscient, omnipotent, infinitely good, and his perfect goodness entails a perfect opposition to every evil (including all suffering of the innocent). All evil is infinitely offensive to the infinite goodness of God, and while he unfailingly draws greater good out of every evil, his act of “permitting” evil is not to be understood as involving any degree of approval. Rather, God’s permission of evil is the endurance of that which is infinitely offensive to him."( newapologetics.com/a-line-in-the-sand)
** If God is perfectly opposed to all evil, then why does God not intervene in the world more often to either prevent or at least reduce it?**
" Though omnipotent, God has irrevocably set a limit to his own power:
“God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature.” (CCC, 1884)
In gratuitous generosity, God has arranged that real power in shaping the world be given to human beings and angels for the sake of imbuing created persons with authentic importance as co-creators. In offering himself totally to creatures, God has given himself away in a most radical manner: All powers and roles of importance that can logically possibly be entrusted to others have, in fact, been given to human beings and angels for the sake of imbuing authentic and irreplaceable importance to each creature made in the image of God:
“We can never give too great prominence to the Scholastic principle that God never does through Himself what may be achieved through created causality… For any result which does not require actually infinite power, God will sooner create a new spiritual being capable of producing that result than produce it Himself.” (Abbot Anscar Vonier, The Human Soul)
There are areas of responsibility that can only be acted upon by God (e.g. the creation of the universe out of nothing, or the governance of the entirety of reality via omniscient providence), and these cannot be given over to creatures due to the limits of logical possibility. Even so, the self-emptying of God is such that many of those actions which can only be accomplished by God himself (such as the forgiveness of sins, or the changing of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ) have been entrusted to human beings as intermediaries through the sacramental ministry of the priesthood. According to God’s generosity, if something can possibly be done or mediated by a finite power, God creates a finite creature to do it rather than doing the thing directly. Since this is a true giving, and not merely the appearance of gift, it follows that creatures now have a kind of power in the world that God does not have.
Even though sin and the suffering caused by it is an infinite offense to him, God is (though metaphysically omnipotent) functionally dependent on the actions of creatures
obedient to him in order to manifest his will and justice in the world. God is in no way controlling things directly, and if a created person chooses to do evil, then real damage is done." (New Apologetics)
I would like to add he would intervene in tragic circumstances but in order to do it would diminish his creatures because he has really given us the gifts. Of course this does not answer every circumstance but it is a start. This view upholds the dignity of human beings and of God. God is Infinitely Good!
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tonyrey
Guest
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tonyrey
Guest
The “debacle” of particles working miracles!
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epan
Guest
If I understand the current thinking in physics, while it is counter to our traditional thinking, it is not absurd at all to expect “everything for nothing”. This is a consequence of Einstein’s observation that matter and energy are equivalent. Stephen Hawking is quite eloquent on this topic, if it interests you.
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tonyrey
Guest
Eloquence does not constitute evidence. The more absurd a hypothesis is the more difficult it is to disprove…
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oldcelt
Guest
A straight-forward response to the OP…He couldn’t…regardless of the excuses created through the centuries.
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tonyrey
Guest
“excuses” begs the question, John. It requires justification in the absence of an explanation as to how suffering can be eliminated…
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oldcelt
Guest
Suffering is a consequence of life here on Earth. It cannot be eliminated anymore than breathing. But God has nothing to do with it, or he is the cause…and that is a God I could never worship. or even respect.
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epan
Guest
Ok. So you dismiss Einstein as absurd. Good for you. Now share you brilliance with us. I’m sure you’ll win several Nobel prizes and every major school will be clamoring. Here is your forum. Speak!!!
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billcu1
Guest
All suffering is self induced. It’s been this way from beginingless time because of bad thinking, confusion, negative reactions. And such. That’s what I like so much about prayer, mediation and reconciliation. When the connection with God has been restored, so much can be done. You just see more clearly. Take a look at this when it comes to suffering.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nid%C4%81nas#The_Twelve-fold_Chain
Our craving and clinging sounds like the disturbing things I here from “normal” people. When I see a beautiful woman. I respect and cherish her. An outward beauty is reflecting inner truth. Some of these people connect beauty with having sex. That’s errors in thinking. I don’t do that. Why do some. We all have our hang ups or there would be no reason to be here. Don’t like of God like he’s a human. His ways are above ours and we can’t understand them.
HTH
Bill
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nid%C4%81nas#The_Twelve-fold_Chain
Our craving and clinging sounds like the disturbing things I here from “normal” people. When I see a beautiful woman. I respect and cherish her. An outward beauty is reflecting inner truth. Some of these people connect beauty with having sex. That’s errors in thinking. I don’t do that. Why do some. We all have our hang ups or there would be no reason to be here. Don’t like of God like he’s a human. His ways are above ours and we can’t understand them.
HTH
Bill
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billcu1
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oldcelt
Guest
Thank you for your view Bill…but it is precisely that.
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josh987654321
Guest
Do you remember the Global Financial Crisis of 2007–08? They too, … leading experts in the field, … claimed to have found a “free lunch.”
I believe people should have seen that coming a mile away (the buck has to stop with someone), but I guess they didn’t want to second guess the leading experts in the field. I also believe it’s being done a similar way regarding the new atheism, if you complicate a theory enough and put an ‘Intellectual title’ behind it, I believe you can deceive alot of people.
As John Lennox say’s, the theory that nothing and nothing can give us something only shows us that nonsense still remains nonsense even when talked about by leading experts.
In regards to the main thread, sorry for taking it a bit off topic.
Thank you for reading
Josh
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tonyrey
Guest
Your post is a superb example of not only a flagrant violation of the forum rule of courtesy but also a false deduction and a sarcastic argumentum ad hominem that calls for an apology if you are genuinely discerning…
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tonyrey
Guest
If suffering is an inevitable consequence of life it doesn’t make sense to blame God for permitting it - unless you reject the value of life…
Do you regret having been born? And even if you do, do you begrudge the gift of life to everyone else?
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tonyrey
Guest
It’s the occupational hazard of specialists to have a one track mind!
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koontz205
Guest
God does not get involved because this is earth; if God went around fixing everything and made all disease hunger so forth all goody goody we would be in Heaven. He would also be proven the Devil right as in: man does not need God. Adam & Eve made a choice to know good and evil…THIS is earth. Sin and the wages of it fall to humans and their reality. We have no choice but to select what we want to see in the world. Man can continue to sin against each other and abuse each other or he can make an attempt to improve his world. With his appeal to God man steps forward demonstrating his need for God’s needed help in his life in this world of pain and raw disregard for humans. This goodness man provides through his plea not only draws on his need for God but also opens a up communication and realizing he is not alone. THIS WORLD Senses Emotions Planets in rotation and all the incredible things we see and experience DID NOT JUST HAPPEN. God is real and is waiting for man to Believe In Him!
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amojesu
Guest
Maybe this has already been posted, but I think the problem lies not with God, but with us in the sense that we forget to look at the big picture. When I made a Cursillo, one of the speakers gave a talk in which she said, “We are not humans experiencing spirituality, but Spirits experiencing humanity.” As humans we are subject to all this planet and this life can hand out. Our bodies are mortal and made of the earth. There can be terrible tragedies and grievous things can happen to us because our bodies are mortal. Add to that the fact that we often turn our backs on other’s suffering for a multitude of reasons. We could ask how could a moral God allow suffering and He might reply, “How could you?” But that is playing a blame game. We are here to learn and grow. We can’t see our true home, our true destiny, and we get so caught up in the drama here that we lose sight and often lose hope. Maybe that is what sin really is–becoming so “earthbound” that we forget who and what we really are and what is important in the light of eternity and in Our Father’s eyes.
This is probably overly simplified, but that one statement made by the speaker at the Cursillo changed my walk with Jesus overnight and it changed my life. Of course, we should do all we can to alleviate suffering and secure justice for all of our fellow pilgrims here on Earth, that is part of the walk. But God sees the whole picture and allows us our free will. I think we are all going to be very surprised when we die and go on in spirit!
This is probably overly simplified, but that one statement made by the speaker at the Cursillo changed my walk with Jesus overnight and it changed my life. Of course, we should do all we can to alleviate suffering and secure justice for all of our fellow pilgrims here on Earth, that is part of the walk. But God sees the whole picture and allows us our free will. I think we are all going to be very surprised when we die and go on in spirit!
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EWSOCKEY
Guest
The Message of Fatima sheds much light on the question of suffering, as does Pope John Paul II’s observations on “The Christian Meaning of Suffering,” written after he studied the Message of Fatima anew after the assassination attempt.
Suffering is caused by sin, first of all by original sin. To have no suffering everyone would have to be without sin, as it was in the Garden of Eden. Following the Fall, sin abounds everywhere, and therefore so does suffering. Nobody on earth is without sin, so nobody on earth is a completely innocent sufferer. Our guardian angel sometimes protects us from suffering, and sometimes doesn’t, according to God’s plan.
For those who are close to God on earth, suffering has a higher purpose (St. Therese pointed out that an all knowing, all loving and all powerful God couldn’t permit anyone to suffer even the least inconvenience without a sufficient purpose).
Why the good are permitted to suffer is not really a mystery if we understand the meaning of the Passion. Jesus and Mary were the only perfectly good persons who lived on earth. Yet both suffered greatly. They suffered to make reparation to God for the sins of everyone else, Jesus directly and Mary through Jesus.
At Fatima Our Lady asked repeatedly for the faithful to offer our suffering to God as reparation for the conversion of sinners saying “This is for the love of Jesus, for the conversion of sinners and as reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” Pope John Paul pointed out that if we are in the state of grace we can do penance for our loved ones who may not be in the state of grace. Our Lady said at Fatima that if enough devout Catholics offered enough prayer and penance for the conversion of sinners many souls would be saved and peace would follow; if not, many would be lost who might have been saved and war and tribulation would increase on earth.
This power and privilege – and duty – come from our being joined to the Mystical Body of Christ, so that He offers up our suffering endured for His sake as His own. Those not in the state of grace suffer for their own sins, those in the state of grace suffer in part for their own sins and in part to make reparation for the sins of others, as participants in the mission of the Mystical Body of Christ. At Fatima the Angel of Peace said “Above all, accept and bear with submission the suffering that God sends you and offer it up as reparation for the conversion of sinners” and “You will thus draw down peace on your nation.” If the whole Church had done what Our Lady asked there would be less suffering on earth today (among other things, there would have been no WWII and the Communist revolution in Russia would not have succeeded).
Suffering is caused by sin, first of all by original sin. To have no suffering everyone would have to be without sin, as it was in the Garden of Eden. Following the Fall, sin abounds everywhere, and therefore so does suffering. Nobody on earth is without sin, so nobody on earth is a completely innocent sufferer. Our guardian angel sometimes protects us from suffering, and sometimes doesn’t, according to God’s plan.
For those who are close to God on earth, suffering has a higher purpose (St. Therese pointed out that an all knowing, all loving and all powerful God couldn’t permit anyone to suffer even the least inconvenience without a sufficient purpose).
Why the good are permitted to suffer is not really a mystery if we understand the meaning of the Passion. Jesus and Mary were the only perfectly good persons who lived on earth. Yet both suffered greatly. They suffered to make reparation to God for the sins of everyone else, Jesus directly and Mary through Jesus.
At Fatima Our Lady asked repeatedly for the faithful to offer our suffering to God as reparation for the conversion of sinners saying “This is for the love of Jesus, for the conversion of sinners and as reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” Pope John Paul pointed out that if we are in the state of grace we can do penance for our loved ones who may not be in the state of grace. Our Lady said at Fatima that if enough devout Catholics offered enough prayer and penance for the conversion of sinners many souls would be saved and peace would follow; if not, many would be lost who might have been saved and war and tribulation would increase on earth.
This power and privilege – and duty – come from our being joined to the Mystical Body of Christ, so that He offers up our suffering endured for His sake as His own. Those not in the state of grace suffer for their own sins, those in the state of grace suffer in part for their own sins and in part to make reparation for the sins of others, as participants in the mission of the Mystical Body of Christ. At Fatima the Angel of Peace said “Above all, accept and bear with submission the suffering that God sends you and offer it up as reparation for the conversion of sinners” and “You will thus draw down peace on your nation.” If the whole Church had done what Our Lady asked there would be less suffering on earth today (among other things, there would have been no WWII and the Communist revolution in Russia would not have succeeded).
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