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bedan_elite
Guest
Read the Book of Job and meditate on the sufferings of our Lord Jesus Christ…
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thirdn6
Guest
Short answer to your question is because He prepared for us an eternal reward of life - in heaven or in hell.
He gave us feelings. This is so that we’ll understand what and how it is like when we get there.
We feel happiness, we feel pain. We can celebrate success, we can suffer in agony - physically, mentally, spiritually. Whether accidental, inflicted… can be caused by anything.
Whether we suffer more than others - that’s life here on earth. That’s the reality.
I came to understand that God has to give favors to some people I may think worthy or not.
I am not ‘favored’. If I don’t receive favor or even answers to my prayers, heck, I think I can live with that - I have faith and that’s more than a gift to me!
If suffering is a prerequisite to entering heaven then I think I can understand that as well. Saints chose to suffer …
Think about it. Imagine if people or everyone is soo numb! Everyone …
I still rather have feelings. I don’t want to be numb forever.
God bless …
He gave us feelings. This is so that we’ll understand what and how it is like when we get there.
We feel happiness, we feel pain. We can celebrate success, we can suffer in agony - physically, mentally, spiritually. Whether accidental, inflicted… can be caused by anything.
Whether we suffer more than others - that’s life here on earth. That’s the reality.
I came to understand that God has to give favors to some people I may think worthy or not.
I am not ‘favored’. If I don’t receive favor or even answers to my prayers, heck, I think I can live with that - I have faith and that’s more than a gift to me!
If suffering is a prerequisite to entering heaven then I think I can understand that as well. Saints chose to suffer …
Think about it. Imagine if people or everyone is soo numb! Everyone …
I still rather have feelings. I don’t want to be numb forever.
God bless …
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oldcelt
Guest
I do not blame God…I believe He has no involvement what-so-ever.If suffering is an inevitable consequence of life it doesn’t make sense to blame God for permitting it - unless you reject the value of life…
Do you regret having been born? And even if you do, do you begrudge the gift of life to everyone else?
So far as your other questions, I can’t imagine what they have to do with this question. We are all here…that is a FACT…and I like facts, not speculation or attempts at rationalization on behalf of omnipotent deities.
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Pitcharan
Guest
Reproduced below is a relevant excerpt from by book - AGAPE: THE DIVINIZING LOVE (amazon.in/Agape-The-Divinizing-Love-Pitcharan/dp/1482817780)
Thanks to the oral tradition of my land, I was able to see true meaning in suffering and thought it would be worthwhile sharing this ancient notion from Indian philosophy―the created universe is a realistic illusion to segregate good and evil. This can be compared to a flight simulator for training, testing and issuing a pilot-license where there is really neither aircraft nor airspace and yet people may learn and also be classified as fit and unfit, to fly an aircraft. Moreover it is the safest way of training and testing as there can be no real injury or damage from accidents. In this life too all creation came from nothing and is bound to simply vanish even as eternity remains beyond full comprehension; yet it is in this life that human beings come to know God, learn to walk in His Way and are segregated as fit and unfit for eternity.
This goes to explain the unbearable horrors of life that make us wonder why God allows them. They’ve got to be illusions, else why would He sit and simply watch? When He allows a horror to happen, He tests how we respond to it. In reality there is no damage done and it is truly NDT i.e., non-destructive testing. The story of Harischandra portrays it most beautifully and so does the book of Job. Our Lord clarified once: “Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them―do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Lk 13:4-5). His teaching only suggests that what is seen and also felt on earth is no real damage but there is real damage in store only in the afterlife, for those who fail to heed the signs while on earth.
That earthly horrors cannot cause real damage is also made clear in the incident involving massacre of innocents: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.” This is what the Lord says: “Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded,” declares the Lord. “They will return from the land of the enemy. Your children will return to their own land.” (Jer 31:15bcd, 16, 17b)
To appreciate the efficacy of worldly trials and tribulations, consider the bombing of the Twin Towers. We saw both the worst and best of human behavior in this tragedy. Now, coming to the best, the supreme sacrifice of the American firefighters is permanently etched in my heart. It was truly a glorious death that will be celebrated by generations to come. Won’t many try to emulate this sterling example?
Our heavenly Father is neither the author nor a spectator of horror on earth. Suffering is a meaningful creation that is bound to vanish without trace, but serves as a vital aid in realizing God’s plan for us apart from gaining great rewards in this life itself.
Thanks to the oral tradition of my land, I was able to see true meaning in suffering and thought it would be worthwhile sharing this ancient notion from Indian philosophy―the created universe is a realistic illusion to segregate good and evil. This can be compared to a flight simulator for training, testing and issuing a pilot-license where there is really neither aircraft nor airspace and yet people may learn and also be classified as fit and unfit, to fly an aircraft. Moreover it is the safest way of training and testing as there can be no real injury or damage from accidents. In this life too all creation came from nothing and is bound to simply vanish even as eternity remains beyond full comprehension; yet it is in this life that human beings come to know God, learn to walk in His Way and are segregated as fit and unfit for eternity.
This goes to explain the unbearable horrors of life that make us wonder why God allows them. They’ve got to be illusions, else why would He sit and simply watch? When He allows a horror to happen, He tests how we respond to it. In reality there is no damage done and it is truly NDT i.e., non-destructive testing. The story of Harischandra portrays it most beautifully and so does the book of Job. Our Lord clarified once: “Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them―do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Lk 13:4-5). His teaching only suggests that what is seen and also felt on earth is no real damage but there is real damage in store only in the afterlife, for those who fail to heed the signs while on earth.
That earthly horrors cannot cause real damage is also made clear in the incident involving massacre of innocents: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.” This is what the Lord says: “Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded,” declares the Lord. “They will return from the land of the enemy. Your children will return to their own land.” (Jer 31:15bcd, 16, 17b)
To appreciate the efficacy of worldly trials and tribulations, consider the bombing of the Twin Towers. We saw both the worst and best of human behavior in this tragedy. Now, coming to the best, the supreme sacrifice of the American firefighters is permanently etched in my heart. It was truly a glorious death that will be celebrated by generations to come. Won’t many try to emulate this sterling example?
Our heavenly Father is neither the author nor a spectator of horror on earth. Suffering is a meaningful creation that is bound to vanish without trace, but serves as a vital aid in realizing God’s plan for us apart from gaining great rewards in this life itself.
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catybug
Guest
I believe God allows suffering to because we have free will, and yes this includes that he allows suffering that falls outside of free will, because then we still have the will to Trust in him our not. And also to stop some suffering would impose on free will. I think God allows suffering because he loves us, and love does not mean withholding pain from someone. Pain in of itself is not bad, allot of times the only way we learn is through pain. Love wants the best for the Beloved, and the best of the beloved. I believe that our trials can bring out the best in us, but also the worst. With our free will, we are able to choose.
The ultimate good, God has done, which is to allow humanity into heaven, despite our disobedience. He did this by allowing His Son to die on the cross for us. Our ultimate reward as Christians is in heaven, despite what any suffering we experienced on earth. It seems allot of the problem with suffering in this thread forget this fact
The ultimate good, God has done, which is to allow humanity into heaven, despite our disobedience. He did this by allowing His Son to die on the cross for us. Our ultimate reward as Christians is in heaven, despite what any suffering we experienced on earth. It seems allot of the problem with suffering in this thread forget this fact
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oldcelt
Guest
I have pointed this out before, but I will do it again: The Christian God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.and is credited with creating everything. That is, until that creation becomes inconvenient. Then somehow it is for our own good, anybody’s fault but God’s or simply avoided.
If the Christian God possesses all the powers listed above, then He cannot avoid complicity in suffering that is undeniably disproportionate.
If the Christian God possesses all the powers listed above, then He cannot avoid complicity in suffering that is undeniably disproportionate.
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catybug
Guest
In Dieism, God just created everything and left it. If thats true what was the point of creation then? Why even believe in a God at all?
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oldcelt
Guest
The purpose of creation is creation. Great artists create because it is in them…great musicians hear the music in their head and must bring it out…God seems to be a creator of that type.
So far as believing in Him, I don’t need some cosmic force controlling my world to believe in the existence of that force. Remember, my belief acquits God of all the evil and suffering in this world and places it firmly on us. Christianity has to spend a lot of time trying to explain the discrepancies in their version of God because of its belief in an interventionist god.
From my point of view, if God does intervene, He is very bad at it.
So far as believing in Him, I don’t need some cosmic force controlling my world to believe in the existence of that force. Remember, my belief acquits God of all the evil and suffering in this world and places it firmly on us. Christianity has to spend a lot of time trying to explain the discrepancies in their version of God because of its belief in an interventionist god.
From my point of view, if God does intervene, He is very bad at it.
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catybug
Guest
It still seems like a very sad way to view things. I see that as the greater evil. Making something, then just leaving it to its own devices to destroy itself. That’d be like if someone had a child, and then just left it in the wilderness. How is your view any better? Because we are different from a piece of art, or music, in that we have free will. An artists painting doesn’t, neither does the musicians song. So why would a Creator go and give something a will that could possibly destroy all other creation, and then just leave it? To me you view also sounds like the easy way out.
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oldcelt
Guest
What if He didn’t directly create humanity? What if He merely kick-started the process?
My view is better because the direct intervention of a deity in a positive manner on behalf of one of his creations, and not another, is discriminatory. If the Christian God is truly all-loving, He would intervene on behalf of all his suffering creatures…or none.
I have personally watched too many innocent children die horrific deaths to believe anything like that. If God is an interventionist, as Christianity teaches, then He is an arbitrary deity…and I’ll leave it at that out of respect for the board and those who believe other than I.
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catybug
Guest
Then that also leaves us how did humanity become so much unlike the rest of creation? Humanity is different from the rest of creation ,because we have free will, unlike animals. You say God is a great artist, and a great artist wants perfection in his art. God also loves us, in that he gave us a decision. Our ability to choose, to act beyond our base nature, to act on good or evil, is part of what separates us from the rest of creation, and so we were made stewards of creation. Creation was perfect in the beginning, but we chose pride over God. Even if you don’t believe in the Bible, you see this in humans every day, so its not a stretch of the imagination. But if God is an artist as you say, he would still want to reconcile his creation, to bring it back to its original perfection. Which is heaven. Christanity recognizes there is suffering, but the suffering isn’t meaningless. Jesus suffered for our sins, we suffer too, and we can choose to turn away from God, or to unite our suffering with Christ.
It seems you are trying to put God into a box of what he can or cant do. Or what is good or isn’t good. But He is the one who created morality.
Children dying is sad, it is still what happens, whether you right and I’m wrong or vice versa. Whats better though, they die and thats that? or they die and go to heaven with a God who loves them? Because in Jesus suffering and dying for us, then God did act for all humanity. Not just some.
It seems you are trying to put God into a box of what he can or cant do. Or what is good or isn’t good. But He is the one who created morality.
Children dying is sad, it is still what happens, whether you right and I’m wrong or vice versa. Whats better though, they die and thats that? or they die and go to heaven with a God who loves them? Because in Jesus suffering and dying for us, then God did act for all humanity. Not just some.
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oldcelt
Guest
I’m afraid we have very little hope of agreeing on much of anything outside the existence of a god. I, personally, will no longer praise a god for doing some of the things i was taught were for our benefit. As I look back I am ashamed that I ever fell for the poorly reasoned stories I once believed.
And if that god truly loved those children, He had the choice of keeping them forever in His kingdom…without the suffering of this life.It makes no sense…and never will.
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catybug
Guest
It makes sense because of the stain of original sin, and because of that we need redemption. This is done by Christ, God came down to earth, so that man can rise with Him. This was done through his suffering. Again you equate suffering as an intrinsically bad thing. But its not. When you take drugs away from a drug addict, they suffer. It is ultimately for their benefit though. Christians don’t ignore suffering, in fact we are told to expect it. We can unite our sufferings with Christ, and suffer on behalf of others.
But your right, we probably aren’t going to agree on this. I’ll leave it at this, and I’ll be praying for you.
Here’s a good read from CA catholic.com/magazine/articles/a-pope%E2%80%99s-answer-to-the-problem-of-pain
and a good book to read is C.S Lewis’s Problem of Pain, and then the book of Job from the Bible is all about suffering.
But your right, we probably aren’t going to agree on this. I’ll leave it at this, and I’ll be praying for you.
Here’s a good read from CA catholic.com/magazine/articles/a-pope%E2%80%99s-answer-to-the-problem-of-pain
and a good book to read is C.S Lewis’s Problem of Pain, and then the book of Job from the Bible is all about suffering.
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LaMBS
Guest
Sometimes we believe we are healthy and allow the doctor to poke, prod and prick us to ensure that we are correct. Occasionally we find that we are not healthy; this minor suffering allows us to find out in time to be cured more easily. Sometimes we are sick and allow the doctor to prescribe unpleasant medicines or operations to bring us back to health. Sometimes we are well and know that we are well but a neighbour is ill so we allow the doctor to take our blood, marrow or perhaps a kidney to heal our friend. In the same way God uses suffering to keep our spiritual life healthy. We do not fault the doctor or think badly of him for causing us to suffer, neither should we fault God. We should thank God for our suffering as it brings us to a better state than we could reach without the suffering. Most Christians pray deliver us from evil, suffering is a means of doing this.
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tonyrey
Guest
An excellent post.
A warm welcome to the forum!
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tonyrey
Guest
You obviously don’t value your freedom to think for yourself and choose how to live but prefer to be a virtual slave compelled to conform like a sycophant.
- Neither you nor anyone else knows to what extent God mitigates suffering. You judge by appearances even though we cannot experience the pain of others.
- You also jump to the conclusion that God is an arbitrary deity without being able to see the whole picture. Your mind is closed to the possibility that the children who weren’t cured would have had far worse experiences in later life.
- The term “horrific deaths” is an appeal to emotion rather than logic and common sense. You haven’t bothered to consider the effect of everyone being miraculously preserved from suffering and death. In other words your point of view is totally unrealistic and based on fantasy rather than fact. It’s easy to condemn but to create a worthwhile world is rather more difficult…
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tonyrey
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Aren’t you speculating and attempting to rationalize an impotent deity?
Is that a FACT or a FICTION?
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oldcelt
Guest
We are ALL speculating when it comes to a deity. The fact remains that we are here…and IF a God has any control over this situation, which I do not believe, then that God is amoral.Aren’t you speculating and attempting to rationalize an impotent deity?
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oldcelt
Guest
You keep forgetting, or so it seems, that I do not believe that God either sends or permits suffering, so the remainder of your points relative to me are invalid.
Point 1…you are really reaching.
On point 2…the Christian God supposedly knew that child’s outcome before they were even conceived.
- If watching a child die of leukemia is not horrific, then I don’t know what it is. I know it can’t be mitigated, but I simply take God out of the equation entirely. I won’t address terms like fantasy for obvious reasons.
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Nate123
Guest
You said: I, personally, will no longer praise a god for doing some of the things i was taught were for our benefit.
I reply: Nor should you praise a “god” that allows suffering to bring a greater good out of it. Such a “god” is not worthy of our praise and worship. Thank God that god does not exist.
You said: “And if that god truly loved those children, He had the choice of keeping them forever in His kingdom…without the suffering of this life.It makes no sense…and never will.”
I reply: God does love the children and he hates the suffering/cancer they go through. Deism is not the answer. The answer relies in the fact that God has given all power away to creatures. He can only intervene through his creatures and its the only way for him to do it without injuring/diminshing further. A gift is a gift and he will not diminish our gifts. Here is an explanation:
"If God is perfectly opposed to all evil, then why does God not intervene in the world more often to either prevent or at least reduce it?
Answer: Though omnipotent, God has irrevocably set a limit to his own power:
“God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature.” (CCC, 1884)
In gratuitous generosity, God has arranged that real power in shaping the world be given to human beings and angels for the sake of imbuing created persons with authentic importance as co-creators. In offering himself totally to creatures, God has given himself away in a most radical manner: All powers and roles of importance that can logically possibly be entrusted to others have, in fact, been given to human beings and angels for the sake of imbuing authentic and irreplaceable importance to each creature made in the image of God:
“We can never give too great prominence to the Scholastic principle that God never does through Himself what may be achieved through created causality… For any result which does not require actually infinite power, God will sooner create a new spiritual being capable of producing that result than produce it Himself.” (Abbot Anscar Vonier, The Human Soul)
There are areas of responsibility that can only be acted upon by God (e.g. the creation of the universe out of nothing, or the governance of the entirety of reality via omniscient providence), and these cannot be given over to creatures due to the limits of logical possibility. Even so, the self-emptying of God is such that many of those actions which can only be accomplished by God himself (such as the forgiveness of sins, or the changing of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ) have been entrusted to human beings as intermediaries through the sacramental ministry of the priesthood.
According to God’s generosity, if something can possibly be done or mediated by a finite power, God creates a finite creature to do it rather than doing the thing directly. Since this is a true giving, and not merely the appearance of gift, it follows that creatures now have a kind of power in the world that God does not have.
Even though sin and the suffering caused by it is an infinite offense to him, God is (though metaphysically omnipotent) functionally dependent on the actions of creatures
obedient to him in order to manifest his will and justice in the world. God is in no way controlling things directly, and if a created person chooses to do evil, then real damage is done." newapologetics.com/ten-questions-and-answers-on-the-why-of-human-suffering
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