How could a moral God allow suffering?

[oldcelt]

And this man who existed and taught, may I ask, what do you think of Him? Who is He to you? A good man? A great moral teacher? A charlatan? A lunatic? A liar?

May I ask, what do you think of His teachings?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

I think that his teachings on human interaction are very good. I suspect (just suspect) that some things involving divinity may have been added after his death. So far as is known, Jesus never wrote anything personally

 

[oldcelt]

There ya go, we agree. And the book of Genesis explains this.

He is in control but gave us freedom to chose. This belongs to mankind just as much as breathing air. For so much in our life we are put in a position of making choices. At the gas station, whether regular or premium. On TV, which station to watch. What to have for breakfast…and so on.

Choices, freedom, is just a natural everyday part of men and women, and necessary. We couldn’t escape it even if we wanted to. God gave us this previlege to walk this planet and to let us chose what we want. God then allows and expects choices.

Yet he still remains in control because he set it up this way. If he had not made us the way he has, then he would have lost control by our choices. And this is what makes “the terrible things that happen here are a consequence of living on earth or our own doing.” It is the bad choices that make our lives unpleasant as well as that of others.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

What about the killings that God directly orders in the OT? What about the slaughter of the innocents in the NT? How about directly creating a child, only to have it die at four months of age? (Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, omnibenevolent) Not everything can logically be true at the same time.

 

[vsedriver]

50 plus years of Christian (Catholic) teaching…I understood it just fine. Since this is a matter of each of our’s spirit, why not try it on our own. Read the bible without help…I did…all the way down the line. You don’t have to accept the party line on anything…it is entirely likely that they are wrong.

If I handed you a book on String Theory do you think you would have a complete grasp of the subject without knowing the authenticity of the author or without a qualified teacher to explain parts of the book that are difficult to understand?

So the Church that chose the books of the Bible doesn’t know what their own sacred scripture means?

 

[oldcelt]

If I handed you a book on String Theory do you think you would have a complete grasp of the subject without knowing the authenticity of the author or without a qualified teacher to explain parts of the book that are difficult to understand?

So the Church that chose the books of the Bible doesn’t know what their own sacred scripture means?

It may just be me, but I will reread something until I understand it. For your second question, it is clear that the writings were chosen to present a particular view, in my opinion. Whether they really understand or just believe what they want, I really cam’t say.

 

[ajecphotos]

Like i said before, put 50 people with 50 bibles and they will probably all have different views on what the words are telling them. This is where we need the knowledge and tradition of the Catholic church. 100s of years of tradition and knowledge.

The word of God, handed down through the generations of Catholic teaching. The one and only true church.

It can be very dangerous to try and make up your own ideas and interpretations of what the bible is telling you. Look how many ‘new’ churches have sprouted up over the hundreds of years because they read the bible without having the knowledge to do so properly. Thinking they could interpret something so it fits in with their ideas!

 

[atjar]

Dear Oldcelt, it appears that you do not believe in heaven. You argue as if you believe this life on earth is all there is.

Suffering on earth only makes sense if heaven exists, everlasting happiness that makes suffering on earth by comparison of no account whatsoever. If this earth is all there is, life makes no sense, since once it ends it is for the individual as if he or she never existed at all. Thus, the deist position justifies all manner of injustice and outrage, because there is no higher law or reward and punishment, from a god who doesn’t care!

The deist position needs to completely ignore the compelling evidence of miracles. You should read about Padre Pio, who lived in our own times and was investigated by scientists and doctors. You should read about the miracles at Lourdes, investigated by doctors of all religions and no religion. You should read about the miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917, witnessed by 70,000 people including agnostic newspaper reporters, judges, lawyers and college professors.

God gives us sufficient evidence of His existence and of His love and care for us as His children. Granted His existence, the only difficulty is in understanding suffering, which God tells us is caused by man, not by Him. But it is not reasonable to deny objective facts because of difficulties in understanding them.
-Bill

God also gives us sufficient evidence of his hardness and lack of compassion when children are born of no fault of their own with horrific birth defects. It didn’t have to be that way with your version of a loving, compassionate creator. I know God is loving and kind and he doesn’t have to explain himself to us. But that aspect of creation, I have a tough time rectifying with this accepted vision of an all-knowing, all-caring creator.

AJ

 

[ajecphotos]

God created us all. Free will is given to us. I am sure that God would like to step in to change things for the better but i am sure that he wants his ‘creation’ to move along on its own steam. To take the highs with the lows.

To ultimately realise that when things are tough God is there for us to turn to. When things are good, God is also there for us to turn to. It is in suffering that one is tested as to whether or not our Love of God is genuine or not.

It would be very easy to believe in God when all is well. Its when things are going bad that we also have to Believe in, Trust in and Love, God!

 

[Aloysium]

God also gives us sufficient evidence of his hardness and lack of compassion when children are born of no fault of their own with horrific birth defects. It didn’t have to be that way with your version of a loving, compassionate creator. I know God is loving and kind and he doesn’t have to explain himself to us. But that aspect of creation, I have a tough time rectifying with this accepted vision of an all-knowing, all-caring creator.

AJ

I don’t see things the same way.
If you have a child with any sort of problem really, you know they are as precious as anyone else. They are because God loves and cares for us equally. Having a disabled child can be seen as a blessing in that one is called to bring out the best of oneself in caring for them. They invariably teach us all what it truly means to be human. Kids in the school yard making fun of each other over stupidities can instantly be quieted by the sudden revelation of God’s gifts represented in the bodily image of such children, who frequently are all smiles, in spite of their difficulties. At any rate, our glorious badies in the resurrection will be free of the corruptions that plague us here. I could go on but sometimes I can get angry at the uncaring society from which parents must protect their kids. I hope you get the gist of what I’m saying. Maybe one more thing: When one has physical or mental problems and disabilities, they are enough without having to gaze at the looks of pity and/or disgust (horror even, it seems) in the faces of others.

View attachment 20363

 

[atjar]

I don’t see things the same way.
If you have a child with any sort of problem really, you know they are as precious as anyone else. They are because God loves and cares for us equally. Having a disabled child can be seen as a blessing in that one is called to bring out the best of oneself in caring for them. They invariably teach us all what it truly means to be human. Kids in the school yard making fun of each other over stupidities can instantly be quieted by the sudden revelation of God’s gifts represented in the bodily image of such children, who frequently are all smiles, in spite of their difficulties. At any rate, our glorious badies in the resurrection will be free of the corruptions that plague us here. I could go on but sometimes I can get angry at the uncaring society from which parents must protect their kids. I hope you get the gist of what I’m saying. Maybe one more thing: When one has physical or mental problems and disabilities, they are enough without having to gaze at the looks of pity and/or disgust (horror even, it seems) in the faces of others.

View attachment 20363

A disabled child might bring out the best in the parent but the parent here isn’t the innocent victim. It’s the child. And for them it’s unspeakable horror and cruelty.

 

[oldcelt]

ajecphotos;12171675**:

Like i said before, put 50 people with 50 bibles and they will probably all have different views on what the words are telling them.

This is where we need the knowledge and tradition of the Catholic church. 100s of years of tradition and knowledge.

The word of God, handed down through the generations of Catholic teaching. The one and only true church.

It can be very dangerous to try and make up your own ideas and interpretations of what the bible is telling you. Look how many ‘new’ churches have sprouted up over the hundreds of years because they read the bible without having the knowledge to do so properly. Thinking they could interpret something so it fits in with their ideas!

The problem is not with the people, it is with the books that were chosen. Why 4 Gospels to tell about one man’s life…because they don’t agree. Why anything but the prophecies of the OT,because they wanted fear and control. Including Leviticus was absolutely unsupportable unless you want people to fear.
That these were handed down does not speak to their truth, but the consequences of objecting until about 200 years ago. Point out a contradiction or question tradition at your own risk.

 

[Aloysium]

A disabled child might bring out the best in the parent but the parent here isn’t the innocent victim. It’s the child. And for them it’s unspeakable horror and cruelty.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!

I deleted the rest of this post and have to cut out of this discussion. This is going to end very badly.

 

[oldcelt]

God also gives us sufficient evidence of his hardness and lack of compassion when children are born of no fault of their own with horrific birth defects. It didn’t have to be that way with your version of a loving, compassionate creator. I know God is loving and kind and he doesn’t have to explain himself to us. But that aspect of creation, I have a tough time rectifying with this accepted vision of an all-knowing, all-caring creator.

AJ

I agree with you up to the point of the Judeo-Christian God being loving and kind. There is sufficient, even overwhelming evidence to show otherwise beginning with the OT to this very day. God doesn’t have to explain Himself, but that doesn’t keep us from trying to figure out who He really is.

 

[tonyrey]

God also gives us sufficient evidence of his hardness and lack of compassion when children are born of no fault of their own with horrific birth defects. It didn’t have to be that way with your version of a loving, compassionate creator. I know God is loving and kind and he doesn’t have to explain himself to us. But that aspect of creation, I have a tough time rectifying with this accepted vision of an all-knowing, all-caring creator.

AJ

How could God prevent **all **birth defects? No one has ever answered that question…

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with you up to the point of the Judeo-Christian God being loving and kind. There is sufficient, even overwhelming evidence to show otherwise beginning with the OT to this very day. God doesn’t have to explain Himself, but that doesn’t keep us from trying to figure out who He really is.

Only Fundamentalists believe every statement in the OT is **literally **true.

 

[tonyrey]

A disabled child might bring out the best in the parent but the parent here isn’t the innocent victim. It’s the child. And for them it’s unspeakable horror and cruelty.

How do you justify that assertion?

 

[atjar]

How do you justify that assertion?

It’s like with murder. Families are victims. The dead person is dead. Guess that would qualify them as the main victim.

 

[tonyrey]

The problem is not with the people, it is with the books that were chosen. Why 4 Gospels to tell about one man’s life…because they don’t agree.

The very fact that there is disagreement on details demonstrates their authenticity. In a court of law eye-witnesses often give different accounts of the same events.

Why anything but the prophecies of the OT,because they wanted fear and control. Including Leviticus was absolutely unsupportable unless you want people to fear.

Jesus condemned the scribes and Pharisees for hypocrisy and exploitation of the poor but to attribute the fundamental teaching of Judaism to their lust for power is absurd.

That these were handed down does not speak to their truth, but the consequences of objecting until about 200 years ago. Point out a contradiction or question tradition at your own risk.

There has always been a diversity of opinion within the Catholic Church except on fundamental doctrines like the divinity of Jesus which are rightly regarded as essential tenets of the Christian faith. Toleration of heresy is not a virtue but a vice…

 

[tonyrey]

It’s like with murder. Families are victims. The dead person is dead. Guess that would qualify them as the main victim.

You were referring to disabled children not children who die…

In either case how could God prevent **all **children from dying or having defects?

 

[tonyrey]

I think that his teachings on human interaction are very good. I suspect (just suspect) that some things involving divinity may have been added after his death. So far as is known, Jesus never wrote anything personally

It is impossible to separate the moral teaching of Jesus from His mission to liberate us from evil. He came to enlighten everyone, not just the minority of literate individuals.

 

[atjar]

You were referring lifeto disabled children not children who die…

In either case how could God prevent **all **children from dying or having defects?[/QUng. He can createdOTE]

God can do anything. He could have created life where no one was born with horrific birth defects. From there human experience as we know today would commence. Every life started not with a horrific genetic malady which would relegate that life just to a few days. Horrific disfigurement. Born without organs or life ending genetic configurstions. A compassionate God could have avoided innocent victims like that. He chose not to.