How could a moral God allow suffering?

[tonyrey]

I believe that is precisely what we have. We truly have free will because God does not impose any plan on us.

We don’t have free will by chance! God gave us free will so that we can fulfil His purpose in creating us.

Far better to me than the slaughter’s recorded in the OT and NT under a God who is actively intervening in our world.

The slaughter was not inflicted by God but by man.

Someone above also says that a raped woman or a dying child are both being punished…wow…and people would actually worship that type of god?

That is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[tonyrey]

You were referring to disabled children not children who die…

In either case how

could God prevent **all **children from dying or having defects?[/QUng. He can createdOTE]

God can do anything. He could have created life where no one was born with horrific birth defects. From there human experience as we know today would commence. Every life started not with a horrific genetic malady which would relegate that life just to a few days. Horrific disfigurement. Born without organs or life ending genetic configurstions. A compassionate God could have avoided innocent victims like that. He chose not to.

 

[oldcelt]

Only Fundamentalists believe every statement in the OT is **literally **true.

So which ones aren’t? Only the ones that paint God in a less than flattering light.

 

[oldcelt]

We don’t have free will by chance! God gave us free will so that we can fulfil His purpose in creating us.
The slaughter was not inflicted by God but by man.
That is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I think the Egyptian first born and several other groups in the OT would disagree.

 

[fred_conty]

God can do anything. He could have created life where no one was born with horrific birth defects. From there human experience as we know today would commence. Every life started not with a horrific genetic malady which would relegate that life just to a few days. Horrific disfigurement. Born without organs or life ending genetic configurstions. A compassionate God could have avoided innocent victims like that. He chose not to.

This has already been explained in Genesis. There would be no illness and death if the original sin had not been committed. And the reason for our tendency toward sin is precisely because of what original sin has done to mankind. We are suffering from sin…not listening to God.

But even so, God has promised those who listen to him a second chance for a perfect paradise again to remedy what original sin of man did to themselves.

Why this way and not some other? In paradise it will be answered if we hold on to faith, hope, and charity.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[oldcelt]

dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2693448/Can-remove-tubes-Fathers-plea-Photoshop-daughters-picture-passes-away-receives-overwhelming-response-strangers.html

’I want to see what my daughter would have looked like without tubes’….

A father whose baby passed away at six-weeks old had one simple request: A portrait of his daughter, Sophia, without hospital tubes attached to her tiny body.

Nathen Steffel, from Ohio, posted his plea on Reddit last Thursday and received an overwhelming response, with commenters submitting retouched photos and sketches of Sophia.

‘My daughter recently passed away after a long battle in the children’s hospital,’ the father-of-two wrote. ‘Since she was in the hospital her whole life, we never were able to get a photo without all her tubes. Can someone remove the tubes from this photo?’

There is no adequate explanation under the Judeo-Christian God…that’s why we’ve never gotten one.

 

[Amandil]

God can do anything.

God cannot make a square circle nor can He make a rock so massive that He cannot lift.

atjar:

He could have created life where no one was born with horrific birth defects.

If you were paying attention to Genesis 1 & 2 He did.

Birth defects, like all other privations and defects that exist in creation, are the result of Original Sin.

So look to your own pride if you want the answer to your question instead of some sort of deficiency in God’s love and goodness.

atjar:

From there human experience as we know today would commence. Every life started not with a horrific genetic malady which would relegate that life just to a few days. Horrific disfigurement. Born without organs or life ending genetic configurstions. A compassionate God could have avoided innocent victims like that. He chose not to.

Wrong again. We’re ALL born disfigured from God’s original intent. Some just manifest it physically.

The irony is that those with the physical defects seem to handle their deformities better and with more grace, peace, and humility better than those of us who presume that just because we don’t lack physically that we are “good” or “well”.

 

[oldcelt]

God cannot make a square circle nor can He make a rock so massive that He cannot lift.
If you were paying attention to Genesis 1 & 2 He did.

Birth defects, like all other privations and defects that exist in creation, are the result of Original Sin.

So look to your own pride if you want the answer to your question instead of some sort of deficiency in God’s love and goodness.
Wrong again. We’re ALL born disfigured from God’s original intent. Some just manifest it physically.

The irony is that those with the physical defects seem to handle their deformities better and with more grace, peace, and humility better than those of us who presume that just because we don’t lack physically that we are “good” or “well”.

Because of the offense of two people none of us ever knew? I had to believe that when I was young or face horrible consequences from the adults. I’m well beyond that stage now. He could have NOT done something…Not create this innocent child for death.

 

[Atisor207]

Love and suffering are one.
The more we love someone the more we suffer for that person when they suffer.
It is only with suffering that we can perfect our virtues.

Patience. If we are pain free and all happy what exactly are we going to yearn for?
Compassion. If we see humans extremely happy how is it that we can feel compassion for them?
Wisdom. If we live in a perfect joyful world what would drive us to seek a better option?
Charity. If we live among all humans who are happy all the time how are we supposed to practice the act of caring for others?
Generosity. If we live in a world where all humans have absolutely everything then how are we supposed to develop the virtue of generosity?

So then the question is. Why is God interested in us developing virtues?
Because He is all virtue and wants us to be at His presence. And only a virtuous person would be able to see virtue itself.
Of course this is not taking into account His mercy and his gifts of grace. .

 

[oldcelt]

Love and suffering are one.
The more we love someone the more we suffer for that person when they suffer.
It is only with suffering that we can perfect our virtues.

Patience. If we are pain free and all happy what exactly are we going to yearn for?
Compassion. If we see humans extremely happy how is it that we can feel compassion for them?
Wisdom. If we live in a perfect joyful world what would drive us to seek a better option?
Charity. If we live among all humans who are happy all the time how are we supposed to practice the act of caring for others?
Generosity. If we live in a world where all humans have absolutely everything then how are we supposed to develop the virtue of generosity?

So then the question is. Why is God interested in us developing virtues?
Because He is all virtue and wants us to be at His presence. And only a virtuous person would be able to see virtue itself.
Of course this is not taking into account His mercy and his gifts of grace. .

No one is asking for perfection. I’d settle for lack of cruelty. Plus, I know many people with NO beliefs who are among the most moral and learned I have ever met. It just doesn’t sell.

 

[Atisor207]

No one is asking for perfection. I’d settle for lack of cruelty. Plus, I know many people with NO beliefs who are among the most moral and learned I have ever met. It just doesn’t sell.

Note that I didn’t say belief but virtue.

Notice I also said that the more love the more the suffering.

I know atheists who are great people and I know atheist who are horrible.
I know theists who are great people and I know theists who are horrible.

It is virtue a characteristic of a good person.

And we may not be asking for perfection, that is not my point. My point is that God is trying to make us virtuous.

So then the question is, can one have love without suffering?
I go back to my initial point that the more we love someone the more we suffer when they suffer.

 

[peipappy]

I have read many good arguments in this post in response to this question of why does God allow suffering. I too would like to respond but from different and maybe more practical point of view.

When nature’s wrath “rains” down on us, it forces us to build climate controlled shelters, barriers and abutments to protect ourselves against the worst she can unleash at us and we continue to develop more and more effective ways to protect ourselves. When illnesses strike it encourages us to find ways to treat and eventually cure these diseases and in the process strengthen our fellowship with one another. When nature makes travel and communication difficult, we create unique ways to overcome these obstacles using the many gifts and talents God has given us. And when situations and events happen to us that are beyond our control, it inspires us to turn to God to give us the graces and strength we need to get through.

I speak to you as a person who knows loss and suffering. I expect I will see much more of it before my life here has ended. Yet, it is my opinion that God allows suffering in order that we may grow and evolve as a people, turn to him in times of need and prepare us for the everlasting life to come by teaching us the true meaning of love your neighbour and communion with one another. When we make a choice to allow suffering to crush us, lay blame or seek vengence, we loose a wonderful opportunity to grow in accordance with God’s own plan.

 

[vsedriver]

dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2693448/Can-remove-tubes-Fathers-plea-Photoshop-daughters-picture-passes-away-receives-overwhelming-response-strangers.html

’I want to see what my daughter would have looked like without tubes’….

There is no adequate explanation under the Judeo-Christian God…that’s why we’ve never gotten one.

you have been offered plenty of explanations. You simply choose not to accept them as they don’t meet your criteria which demands an end to suffering in order to show that God is compassionate and loving.

It is the purpose of suffering that you don’t understand. No one, not even the innocent is free from the cross as evidenced by the most innocent of all being crucified.

 

[vsedriver]

It may just be me, but I will reread something until I understand it.

great! keep reading the Bible because you don’t understand it yet.

For your second question, it is clear that the writings were chosen to present a particular view, in my opinion.

Yes, the writings were chosen to present a particular view… the public revelation of God as taught to the Apostles by Jesus Christ during the 3 years of his ministry.

Whether they really understand or just believe what they want, I really cam’t say.

They would have to have been pretty stupid to select writings they didn’t understand. But it is common for modern man to view ancient man as stupid.

 

[Amandil]

Because of the offense of two people none of us ever knew?

Its called human solidarity.

Many Germans now neither met nor knew Hitler, yet they still share some shame with what he did in the holocaust.

Yet at the same time the country of Germany is celebrating as one because one of theirs, Mario Goetze, and scored the winning goal which won the tournament for the team. They didn’t score the goal, but they are sharing in the glory.

Neither you nor I have ever met Hitler, but the fact remains that he IS our relative, only a little less close than our grandfather. So is Mother Theresa.

Original Sin is not a doctrine alien to our real lives. When a pregnant mother takes drugs, her baby is born an addict. That is Original Sin, spiritual and moral heredity.

I had to believe that when I was young or face horrible consequences from the adults. I’m well beyond that stage now.

Genetic fallacy.

He could have NOT done something…Not create this innocent child for death.

Which would make him into YOUR god, an unloving, “pragmatic”, and disinterested deity.

Not a loving God who creates out of the sheer love of the thing created, regardless of your subjective opinions of the circumstances.

Mind you, what you call “death” for us is not the end of the child’s existence. So despite your appeal to emotion, your lack of hope says volumes in regards to your worldview.

 

[vsedriver]

I speak to you as a person who knows loss and suffering. I expect I will see much more of it before my life here has ended. Yet, it is my opinion that God allows suffering in order that we may grow and evolve as a people, turn to him in times of need and prepare us for the everlasting life to come by teaching us the true meaning of love your neighbour and communion with one another. When we make a choice to allow suffering to crush us, lay blame or seek vengence, we loose a wonderful opportunity to grow in accordance with God’s own plan.

Well said!

 

[Amandil]

Well said!

“The cross reminds us that there is no true love without suffering, there is no gift of life without pain…Many learn this truth in Lourdes, which is a school of faith and hope, because it is also a school of charity and of service to brothers.” -Pope Benedict XVI

 

[tonyrey]

You were referring lifeto disabled children not children who die…

In either case how

could God prevent **all **children from dying or having defects?[/QUng. He can createdOTE]

God can do anything. He could have created life where no one was born with horrific birth defects. From there human experience as we know today would commence. Every life started not with a horrific genetic malady which would relegate that life just to a few days. Horrific disfigurement. Born without organs or life ending genetic configurstions. A compassionate God could have avoided innocent victims like that. He chose not to.
It would be obvious that God exists if **no one **were born with birth defects because there would be no possible scientific explanation for such a strange phenomenon. To expect normality for every child is not only unrealistic but absurd. Why stop there? What about accidents and diseases which afflict older children and adults? Why shouldn’t they be prevented as well?

It is easy to make facile suggestions for piecemeal improvements to the world but creating an earthly Utopia is a totally different proposition. In short, an infantile fantasy with no foundation in fact which implies a presumption of moral and intellectual superiority to the Creator of the universe…

 

[tonyrey]

Only Fundamentalists believe every

You are overlooking the very criterion by which you condemn the alleged slaughter in the OT, the criterion which makes nonsense of deism: the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father who loves all His children, whose precept of universal compassion you attempt to follow in your daily life without being able to explain how such unselfish love originated in a world dominated by evil, injustice and suffering…

 

[madera]

This is a classic theological question, one that I have never had properly answered, I’m sure it’s been asked before but I’ll try to add my own spin to it, let’s get started!
This question tends to go along the lines of
" Look at all the grief and misery in the world! How could God allow all
this suffering, how could he allow rape and murder?!?"

Which usually receives the following answer, “Well you see, suffering exists because God allows humanity to have free will, if there is no suffering, then there is no free will, we would be mindless robots!”

However I have some problems with t
hat answer which I will summarize into two main critiques.

…?..

?..

It’s easier to blame God than to look at ourselves.
We bring everything on ourselves, passing the curse down from one generation to our children and what do you do? Blame God!
Hmmmm

One, this doesn’t explain gratuitous suffering or suffering without cause.

For example some babies are born with cancer or other serious diseases through absolutely no fault of their own or anyone else’s. So would God be interfering with free will if he cured the babies of their disease? Or what about victims of hurricanes or tsunamis or other naturally occurring tragedies? What do unfortunate random circumstances have to do with free will? Why couldn’t God save these people?

Two, free will is overrated

Let’s say a woman is about to be raped, God has the power to stop it, but chooses not to because the rapist has free will. I can understand this point of view as free will is very valuable and is one of the characteristics of being human. But what about the free will of the woman? She obviously doesn’t want to get raped, so if God doesn’t interfere, someone’s free will is going to get violated anyway, so why not interfere on the side of the woman? This sort of makes me think that God is choosing the free will of a rapist over the well-being of an innocent woman, in what way could that possibly be moral?

Also it could be argued this opens up a paradox.
God is all-powerful He is also completely and utterly kind.
Yet there is suffering.
So God is not all-powerful,
Conclusion there is no God
Or
God is not all kind
Conclusion God is evil

I am very interested to see your responses!