How could a moral God allow suffering?

[Amandil]

I’m not really sure that you realise this but this sequence of posts of yours is just screaming: I Don’t Want To Answer The Question! I don’t know about you, but I’ll be keeping this up until I get a sensible answer…

I hope you realize that this sequence of posts of yours is just screaming, “I need you to confirm all of my assumptions, biases, and prejudices!”

You have to prove to me that you’re not begging the question. At this point you clearly haven’t done that.

Bradski:

Do you understand the concept of physical pain? If so, do you think that animals feel it when attacked by a predator?

Where did I say that I didn’t?

Bradski:

Do you understand the concept of fear? If so, do you think that animals feel it when attacked by a predator?

How do you know that animals know the concept of fear? Is what you call their experience of “fear” emotional or instinctual?

Bradski:

No, I’m just trying to get your answer to the questions above. Any chance this time?

And the last quote is from another thread. Please concentrate on this one.

I know it was from another thread. It was merely a demonstration for the record. You clearlyuunderstand the necessity of terms being clear and unambiguous.

So I’ll be waiting for your clarifications.

 

[Bradski]

Where did I say that I didn’t?

Nobody has said that you didn’t agree but every man and his dog can see that you’ve been desperately straining to avoid saying that you did. So unless you want to make an argument that animals don’t feel pain, I will take that above statement, at last, as an agreement that they do.

Wow, certainly took some time…

How do you know that animals know the concept of fear? Is what you call their experience of “fear” emotional or instinctual?

If you want to deny that animals feel fear then off you go. I don’t want to waste another dozen posts chasing smoke. I’ll just stick with the pain, which was the original point.

Now we can go back a dozen posts or so and try again:

So the question still stands: Why has God set up the natural world so that animals suffer so much pain?

 

[Amandil]

Nobody has said that you didn’t agree but everyone and his dog can see that you’ve been desperately straining to avoid saying that you did.

Patience obviously isn’t in your vocabulary, neither is clarity or sincerity.

I have no interest is attacking strawmen practicing sophistry. If you can’t appreciate that then that’s your problem, not mine.

Bradski:

If you want to deny that animals feel fear then off you go.

Which animals? There are millions of different species of animals at varying states of existence.

The question is too vague to even address.

Bradski:

Now we can go back a dozen posts or so and try again:

Is pain irrevocably evil and/or immoral?

Does the existence of any pain or suffering or evil in the natural world disprove the existence of God?

 

[Bradski]

Which animals? There are millions of different species of animals at varying states of existence.

All those with a central nervous system.

Is pain irrevocably evil and/or immoral?

No.

Does the existence of any pain or suffering or evil in the natural world disprove the existence of God?

No.

So the question still stands: Why has God set up the natural world so that animals suffer so much pain?

 

[oldcelt]

Was “heresy” even a crime in the Roman Empire?

And what specifically does “preaching sedition” entail?

Surely you have sources to back this up?

Reading my post might help.

I feel quite certain that the Jewish authorities had another word for heresy and the Romans one for sedition. You may have to try actually reading someone’s post before putting up such a response.
Note…the final line…the rest, just google.

 

[Amandil]

Reading my post might help.

I feel quite certain that the Jewish authorities had another word for heresy and the Romans one for sedition. You may have to try actually reading someone’s post before putting up such a response.
Note…the final line…the rest, just google.

I read your post. It didn’t make sense. I asked you to try and clarify and yet I get the above.

You might want to try and read the Bible.

Jesus wasn’t charged by the Jews for “preaching heresy”. He was charged with blasphemy.

Heresy wasn’t a crime in the Roman empire.

The Jews falsely accused Jesus to the Romans claiming that He said he was king over Caesar. That is not even sedition.

You said things as if what you were saying was accurate when they weren’t.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Amandil]

And what makes the biblical account “problematic” aside from your own bias or the biases of others who share your views?

 

[Amandil]

So the question still stands: Why did God set up the natural world so that animals suffer so much pain?

Your question was already answered long time ago: He didn’t. God didn’t set up the natural world as you see it. It’s by definition “fallen”.

So since you answered “no” to my previous questions, you really have no point.

That’s why you try and understand clearly what it is the Church teaches instead what you assume that it teaches.

 

[Bradski]

Your question was already answered long time ago: He didn’t. God didn’t set up the natural world as you see it. It’s by definition “fallen”.

So why not say that the first time instead of tripping and pirouetting around to avoid the question of pain? You are now saying that…yes animals suffer pain but it’s because of the Fall. And from that we can deduce that they didn’t suffer pain before the Fall. All good so far.

We’ve now got ourselves two scenarios:

1. Animals felt no pain for billions of years before the Fall, then did from that point on.
2. Animals felt no pain before the Fall which was billions of years ago.

Now the Catholic Church has no problem in accepting the age of the earth and evolution and all that other sciency stuff but I’m not aware that they teach that the Fall was that long ago. Before Man as it were. So that might rule out number 2.

Do you agree with number 1 or do you have another scenario?

 

[Amandil]

So why not say that the first time instead of tripping and pirouetting around to avoid the question of pain?

You seem to have short term memory loss.

I did say this(post # 364). You simply ignored it and diverted the discussion.

Bradski:

You are now saying that…yes animals suffer pain but it’s because of the Fall. And from that we can deduce that they didn’t suffer pain before the Fall. All good so far.

We’ve now got ourselves two scenarios:

1. Animals felt no pain for billions of years before the Fall, then did from that point on.
2. Animals felt no pain before the Fall which was billions of years ago.

Now the Catholic Church has no problem in accepting the age of the earth and evolution and all that other sciency stuff but I’m not aware that they teach that the Fall was that long ago. Before Man as it were. So that might rule out number 2.

Do you agree with number 1 or do you have another scenario?

I said nothing about “the Fall”.

You’ve simply built another strawman.

 

[oldcelt]

I read your post. It didn’t make sense. I asked you to try and clarify and yet I get the above.

You might want to try and read the Bible.

Jesus wasn’t charged by the Jews for “preaching heresy”. He was charged with blasphemy.

Heresy wasn’t a crime in the Roman empire.

The Jews falsely accused Jesus to the Romans claiming that He said he was king over Caesar. That is not even sedition.

You said things as if what you were saying was accurate when they weren’t.

Pot, meet kettle.

I see that you have nothing left but to try to quibble over words that none of the parties involved would understand. Please explain the exact difference in real terms between blasphemy and heresy and which translation you are using.
I’ll help you with one…Sedition: conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.

Now, who needs to read?

 

[Bradski]

You seem to have short term memory loss. I did say this(post # 364). You simply ignored it and diverted the discussion.

I said nothing about “the Fall”. You’ve simply built another strawman.

Post 364 said this:

Christianity holds that God created world as “good” and that it was corrupted by a segment of angels lead by Satan.

Are you saying that there was death and pain before the Fall?

 

[Amandil]

I see that you have nothing left but to try to quibble over wordthe words that none of the parties involved would understand.

Please explain the exact difference in real terms between blasphemy and heresy and which translation you are using.

The Revised Standard Version.

BTW a simple search and you can find out instead of just making statements which you don’t understand as if they were true.

“Heresy” means “to pick out for oneself”. It’s etymology is Greek(Jews would never use the wird).

Jesus never taught anything that would be considered heretical according to Jewish law, nor against the Roman gods.

“Blasphemy” is to curse or revile God.

You’d think with your Catholic background that you ought to know the difference.

oldcelt:

I’ll help you with one…Sedition: conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.

Now, who needs to read?

Jesus never did anything in “conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of the state or monarch.”

And that’s not even what the Jews accused Him of(see the Gospel of John, chpt 18-19).

So apparently you do.

 

[Amandil]

Are you saying that there was death and pain before the Fall?

I’m saying that the Fall, the event which Adam and Eve fell, was not directly the cause for the corruption of the world.

There’s no reason not to believe that Satan and his angels perverted and corrupted the natural order in mockery of God.

Explicitly the Church and Scripture are silent on the matter.

So in any case it’s a non-point.

 

[Bradski]

I’m saying that the Fall, the event which Adam and Eve fell, was not directly the cause for the corruption of the world.

There’s no reason not to believe that Satan and his angels perverted and corrupted the natural order in mockery of God.

So you say it wasn’t God that caused animals to feel pain, it was Satan and his cronies that perverted and corrupted the natural world, thereby causing animals to feel pain ‘in mockery of God’. And you believe God chose not to do anything about this but let Satan have his way?

And we’re still just talking of animals here. Not Man.

 

[tonyrey]

One simple word answers the question:
**
**

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the** limitations **proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

An earthly Utopia is an infantile fantasy…

 

[tonyrey]

I’m sorry Amandil, I’m not thankful for Original Sin, I don’t know if I even understand it and I certainly don’t understand how Original Sin could be the reason for salvation.

The blood-stained history of the human race is overwhelming evidence that we have been adversely affected by the behaviour of our ancestors:

When one contemplates the streak of insanity running through human history, it appears highly probable that homo sapiens is a biological freak, the result of some remarkable mistake in the evolutionary process. The ancient doctrine of original sin, variants of which occur independently in the mythologies of diverse cultures, could be a reflection of man’s awareness of his own inadequacy, of the intuitive hunch that somewhere along the line of his ascent something has gone wrong.

• The Ghost in the Machine

Arthur Koestler realised man is responsible for the appalling amount of unnecessary suffering in the world but he overlooked our moral responsibility.

Jesus liberates us from our** culpable** insanity - if we choose to be liberated…

 

[Bradski]

One simple word answers the question:

That part of the Catechism refers to evil. I think we need to discount evil when it comes to animals suffering pain. There is no evil intent in, for example, a lion eating a gazelle.

 

[rinnie]

So why not say that the first time instead of tripping and pirouetting around to avoid the question of pain? You are now saying that…yes animals suffer pain but it’s because of the Fall. And from that we can deduce that they didn’t suffer pain before the Fall. All good so far.

We’ve now got ourselves two scenarios:

1. Animals felt no pain for billions of years before the Fall, then did from that point on.
2. Animals felt no pain before the Fall which was billions of years ago.

Now the Catholic Church has no problem in accepting the age of the earth and evolution and all that other sciency stuff but I’m not aware that they teach that the Fall was that long ago. Before Man as it were. So that might rule out number 2.

Do you agree with number 1 or do you have another scenario?

The Church does not avoid the question of pain. Pain and suffering is a part of this world.

Jesus suffered more pain then anyone could ever have imagined. He suffered It because of his love for us.

Kings in this world had people die for them, slave for them. Jesus was quite the opposite he died for us and you could say worked for us.

He ate and drank with sinners, he ministered to the poor. He understood suffering and it was him and his example that showed us how to react to it.

Suffering is a great mystery of our faith. But Jesus taught us how good can be brought out of it.

If someone is hurt and you go and help them out, what is the gift to you? That is one mystery of suffering. You get nothing, but somewhere deep in your soul you are paid more then money can ever replace. That’s God and his mystery of suffering.

You want an explanation for pain, we have given it to you. Sin, Sin brings suffering and suffering brings pain rather emotional or physical.

Adam and Eve sinned, they refused to listen to God and do life their way, It brought on suffering, pain and even death.

People blame God because kids are starving in other countries, and yet in this country people gorge themselves with food and are obese. You got rich people, look at the TV looking just as bad as the starving kids. Explain that.

People only care about themselves. What have you done for people suffering, or starving? Do you disagree that in this country we could fix it? Why don’t we? if we all pulled together and took food over there it would be case closed.

But for every solution in this country this is sin. Someone in power who does not want the problem fixed, and it sure is not GOD!!

 

[rinnie]

So you say it wasn’t God that caused animals to feel pain, it was Satan and his cronies that perverted and corrupted the natural world, thereby causing animals to feel pain ‘in mockery of God’. And you believe God chose not to do anything about this but let Satan have his way?

And we’re still just talking of animals here. Not Man.

To begin with you cannot compare humans to animals. Animals were put here to serve Man not Man serve animals. (although today is this world you wonder about that also, some people treat animals better then humans) Again free will you don’t blame that on God.

Pain comes from disease, and disease again comes from sin.

An example, a Man spreads toxic waste on my land. (knows the damage it can cause,then sells me the land). I don’t know, I drink my well water, I die my kids all die and animals all die. We all suffer, Why because of God? Or because of the Man who did not care about us, but about himself?

That is pretty much winding up human suffering and pain.

Same Man years down the line, Toxic waste take over the town, it catches up with him, he dies suffers, but also along with the guilty the innocent suffer. Its the world, its the free will of selfish people, who never really have regrets unless it hits home.

Sin and greed cause suffering and death. Just look at the world today!!

People who ran off with millions of others money, and got away with it. ITs greed.

But God gave us free will because he does not want us robots. He wants us to choose him because we want him, not because he forces it on us.

If he forced his way on us, there would be no sin, no suffering, no death. We want God, we follow him anyway, no matter how hard, and in the next life we get things his way. His way is to not choose sin, ever. Simple really!