How could Adam and Eve sin?

[OneSheep]

Treating nudity as shameful and sinful are against the way God created things, according to the narrative of Genesis 3. (Of course, it’s just figurative, but it points to a distinct conclusion…)

The way I see it, it fits Genesis 1 that humanity was created as it is in a single uninterrupted motion. Humans are made with strong sexual desires just as all species have strong sexual desires, and the purpose of such desire is procreation. Given that, and given that it is more advantageous for a child to be reared by its biological parents, and in order for there to be some order in the tribal setting, we have a conscience that is formed (revealed?) to inhibit behaviors that end up causing huge problems within the tribe. The purpose of the mores we are addressing is not to make nudity shameful or sinful, but to discourage displays that may stimulate promiscuity.

I think we can agree that nudity in itself is not shameful or sinful. Since A&E “knew” they were naked, it is evidence that they had acquired the capacity to form the concept that public nudity was unacceptable. The capacity to form this concept, to feel shame from the violation, etc, is a gift from God, right?

Let me answer that with a question: do you think that it was God’s intent that human sexuality is characterized, to an extent, by lust?

Hmm. Humans have strong desire for sex, I think that is God’s intent. “Lust” is actually a word we use to express our own resentment of the strong desire, which is part of the activity of the conscience. When we resent our strong desire, it helps us keep it in check, and when others act irresponsibly on their strong desire, our condemnation helps others keep their behavior in check. This activity of the conscience, I think, is also God’s intent.

Yes, there is a side-effect that people somehow see their own nudity, their own sexual desire, and the blindness one has when caught up in sexual desire as bad, and that perception takes away from the truth of our own beauty and dignity. Having a conscience has its expense, but the expense is worth the outcome.

(continued)

 

[OneSheep]

Aquinas says, “Christ’s sacrifice makes satisfaction with God and rights the moral injustice against God.”

This is what he said, but did (does) God forgive from the heart immediately, or was He “unsatisfied” with man until the incarnation? The “satisfaction” aspect has to do with activity of the conscience, right? When someone wrongs us, we feel that they owe us, they have violated us and need to make recompense.

We ‘blame’ Adam and Eve in the same way that we accept blame for our sins.

Yes we do, because of the activity of the conscience. Do you see as I do, that we are not called to hang onto blame, but to forgive? Note: I am addressing forgiveness-from-the-heart. I think you are using “accept blame” as “taking ownership” which is a different dimension of the picture.

Are you referring to the “they know not what they do” line? That means “they don’t realize that they’re killing the Son of God”, not “they don’t realize that they’re sinners”!

They were blind in many ways. The people responsible for all three crucifixions did not know the dignity of the humans they were destroying. They were blinded by desire for justice. This is only part of their not knowing what they were doing.

No, I don’t see that. As you point out, we see that they engaged their consciences, trying to decide whether to do what God asked of them, or to take a different course. And, we see that there were consequences for their sin, just as there are consequences for our sins.

Well, it is certainly against human nature, for example, to take risks that compromise the wellbeing of their offspring, and they did not know this was part of the picture. (Did they even know that they would have children?) I know why I would do what Eve did, and I could forgive myself given what was going on in her mind (in my projection) at the time. When we are caught up in strong desire for something, our consciences experience a compromise. She did not know what death was, but surely, in her eyes, since God is so loving and everything else around is a gift, then the taking of this fruit is really not going to be such a bad thing, like if it was so bad, why did He put it there in the first place? These are all expressions of a compromised conscience from the mind of a person caught up in want.

How do you feel when your own conscience is compromised by strong desire? At the moment of the compromise, I have no resentment towards the capacity, but in the aftermath, I feel guilty about the poor choice and resentful of my blindness.

Do you resent this capacity for blindness that compromises the conscience?

Can you understand what Adam and Eve did in light of the beauty of what it means to be human, and/or do you forgive them for simply being fallible due to an error of judgment?

 

[Latin]

Sure but all that means, as Georgias mentioned, is that the saved (those whom God foreknows to have eternal life) will be, um, saved. It doesn’t have much meaning for us-and there’s not much point in even discussing it because we can’t know with 100% certainty who the elect are. And that is Catholic teaching, that no one can know with absolute certainty that they have eternal life.

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
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It is common knowledge, when a Christian doesn’t know he will spend eternity in heaven or will burn forever in hell and will experience the pains of hell for all eternity, can cause spiritual starvation, a fear induced paralyzed state and his great commission can be his great omission.
.

Now go back to see the way God restores the sins of Adam and Eve by saving the human race with His gifts of salvation.
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CCC 1058; The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).
.
Matt.19:25-26; When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
.

1 Timothy 2:3-4; This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
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Rom.5:18; Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
.

I don’t ask form you Fhansen; Do you believe that God will gives His gift of salvation to every member of the human race and everyone saved?
.
I only ask form you Fhansen; Do you believe THE POSSIBILITY that God will gives His gift of salvation to every member of the human race and everyone saved?

.
Before you answer the question Fhansen, please consider:

CCC 412; But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”

And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin;

God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.

Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, 'O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’" End quote.
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Thank you for your answer in advance.

.
Latin

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

Sure but all that means, as Georgias mentioned, is that the saved (those whom God foreknows to have eternal life) will be, um, saved. It doesn’t have much meaning for us-and there’s not much point in even discussing it because we can’t know with 100% certainty who the elect are. And that is Catholic teaching, that no one can know with absolute certainty that they have eternal life.

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
.
It is common knowledge, when a Christian doesn’t know he will spend eternity in heaven or will burn forever in hell and will experience the pains of hell for all eternity, can cause spiritual starvation, a fear induced paralyzed state and his great commission can be his great omission.
.

Now go back to see the way God restores the sins of Adam and Eve by saving the human race with His gifts of salvation.
.
CCC 1058; The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).
.
Matt.19:25-26; When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
.

1 Timothy 2:3-4; This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
.
Rom.5:18; Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
.

I don’t ask form you Fhansen; Do you believe that God will gives His gift of salvation to every member of the human race and everyone saved?
.
I only ask form you Fhansen; Do you believe THE POSSIBILITY that God will gives His gift of salvation to every member of the human race and everyone saved?

.
Before you answer the question Fhansen, please consider:

CCC 412; But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”

And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin;

God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.

Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, 'O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’" End quote.
.
Thank you for your answer in advance.

.
Latin

None of the references you quoted: “common knowledge”, the catechism, the New Testament, Aquinas et al support or teach universal salvation. I happen to believe its possible however.

 

[Latin]

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

Unfortunately you are correct Fhansen, none of the references I quoted: common knowledge, yet should be common knowledge among Catholics.
.
CCC 1058; The Church prays that no one should be lost.
We are praying for Universal Salvation. – We all SHOULD believe God grants us what we are praying for, in particular, Universal Salvation is also God’s will!
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1 Timothy 2:3-4; God wants all people to be saved (Universal Salvation).
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Rom.5:18; … resulted in justification and life for all people, (Universal Salvation).
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God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good, which is “God’s stretching us into perfection” (reference to Universal Salvation).
.
Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”) The good cannot be hell, only can be heaven.
.

If we dig deep in Catholic Soteriology we find the spiritual gold nuggets.
.

Of course I have to be careful not to push my luck, just recently five or six of my posts disappeared from the screen with full of spiritual gold nuggets, which gold nuggets are not common knowledge among Catholics, yet the most wonderful parts of Catholic Soteriology.
.

Latin

 

[fhansen]

If we dig deep in Catholic Soteriology we find the spiritual gold nuggets.
.

Of course I have to be careful not to push my luck, just recently five or six of my posts disappeared from the screen with full of spiritual gold nuggets, which gold nuggets are not common knowledge among Catholics, yet the most wonderful parts of Catholic Soteriology.

“Digging deep” can be another way of bypassing the otherwise plain teachings of the Church. Sources for virtually anything we might wish to believe can be found in the bible as well as Catholic thinkers, etc. Self-serving “nuggets” lie everywhere.

The human will is always the wild card, otherwise God may as well have prevented Adam & Eve from sinning to begin with. Did He want them to eat of the fruit after commanding them not to? So bringing good out of evil is done without overriding the human will. And this allows for the possibility of a person rejecting salvation, of rejecting God IOW. And this information can all be found in the plain and clear and official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. God loves all and desires that all be saved. He won’t force that to happen. If He was going to force that to happen then a good God would presumably just put everyone in heaven to begin with and avoid all the pain, suffering, sin and evil that has occurred since and because of the Fall of man.

Instead, evil (the experience or knowledge of evil) has a role to play, that of changing our wills, of orienting them towards the good, towards God, the Ultimate Good, as we come to learn here of the fallacy of sin and evil and develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness instead. This “right willing” is part and parcel of our justice. The final outworking of it is to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. This is the full definition of our justice and it entails, necessarily, a process involving experience and time along with revelation/knowledge and grace. And all of this likewise necessarily means that the will is free, not forced.

Perhaps God will somehow work things out so that all are saved-what do I know?-it’s His universe anyway. I love what Julian of Norwich said, a 14th century believer who had a burden for the fate of all those being lost during the Black Plague. God “shewed” her, as quoted in the Catechism, that “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.” Without getting the specifics on it, she understood enough to be satisfied with that answer. And at the end of the day we can trust that God will work things out so that all will be totally satisfied that only good had been done while divine justice has been served, however He accomplishes that.

 

[Latin]

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
.
I love too what God “shewed” to Julian of Norwich, “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”

I love it that much, when I read it in your post, the tear came from my eyes.
.

According to the view of some people it is a possibility of a person rejecting salvation, of rejecting God.

According to God’s Divine Providence, it is NOT POSSIBLE that a person rejecting salvation, of rejecting God, because God EFFECTS in us EVERYTHING, the WILLING and the ACTING, without God we can do NOTHING.
.

(Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3). God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.

Ezekiel 36:26-27;
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
.
We are truly renewed by the action of the Holy Spirit, remaining always dependent on His work (‘cause you,’) in us.
.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
.

For to see the way the sufficient and the efficacious graces working in us, please see my above post 220.
.

Latin

 

[fhansen]

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.
.
I love too what God “shewed” to Julian of Norwich, “All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”

I love it that much, when I read it in your post, the tear came from my eyes.
.

According to the view of some people it is a possibility of a person rejecting salvation, of rejecting God.

According to God’s Divine Providence, it is NOT POSSIBLE that a person rejecting salvation, of rejecting God, because God EFFECTS in us EVERYTHING, the WILLING and the ACTING, without God we can do NOTHING.
.

(Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3). God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.

Ezekiel 36:26-27;
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
.
We are truly renewed by the action of the Holy Spirit, remaining always dependent on His work (‘cause you,’) in us.
.
.
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
.
De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
.

For to see the way the sufficient and the efficacious graces working in us, please see my above post 220.
.

Latin

None of this means that all will be saved.

 

[PJM]

I think we can agree on the fact that Adam and Eve were created perfect. They were rational beings. They also were created Free. The questions is: How they could act against their nature, rationality? Their nature was perfect and not corrupted so they could not act against themselves.

Because “perfect” implies the FREE use of their rationality.

They were free to choose between good and evil; they freely and pridefully choose the same evil as did Satan: they desire to BE GOD.

GBY,

PJM

 

[Latin]

STT:

I think we can agree on the fact that Adam and Eve were created perfect. They were rational beings. They also were created Free. The questions is: How they could act against their nature, rationality? Their nature was perfect and not corrupted so they could not act against themselves.

Because “perfect” implies the FREE use of their rationality.

They were free to choose between good and evil; they freely and pridefully choose the same evil as did Satan: they desire to BE GOD.

GBY,

PJM

Do you believe PJM or anyone else believe, it was a possibility for them that they choose good and as the results, we are still living in the Garden of Eden today?

 

[Gorgias]

Do you believe PJM or anyone else believe, it was a possibility for them that they choose good and as the results, we are still living in the Garden of Eden today?

In contradiction to the teaching of the Church? Nope.

 

[Vico]

Why they should try the fruit if they have already had knowledge?

They did not have knowledge of everything, which only God has. Theologians refer to knowledge possessed by Adam:

• about God and His attributes,
• about the moral law or man’s relations to God, and
• about the material and spiritual physical universe.

Pride is the sin. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote “The woman was deceived because she was first of all puffed up with pride. Wherefore her ignorance did not excuse, but aggravated her sin, in so far as it was the cause of her being puffed up with still greater pride.”
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm

 

[STT]

They had a state of sanctifying grace which brings with it seven gifts.
1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

That is what you said. They were wise, understandable, knowledgeable, etc.

 

[Vico]

They had a state of sanctifying grace which brings with it seven gifts.
1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

Yes. It does not say complete, however. If a person had the Beatific Vision that person would not choose to sin. Adam and Eve did not have the Beatific Vision nor did the angels before their choice.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

Do you believe PJM or anyone else believe, it was a possibility for them that they choose good and as the results, we are still living in the Garden of Eden today?

In contradiction to the teaching of the Church? Nope.

Thank you for your answer, but I’m not sure I correctly understand what you are saying without the clarification of the teachings of the Church on the subject.

Even a simple yes or no answer would do.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Latin:

Do you believe PJM or anyone else believe, it was a possibility for them that they choose good and as the results, we are still living in the Garden of Eden today?

In contradiction to the teaching of the Church? Nope.

Thank you for your answer, but I’m not sure I correctly understand what you are saying without the clarification of the teachings of the Church on the subject.

Even a simple yes or no answer would do.

You asked whether it was a possibility that we are living in the Garden today. My answer is ‘no’.

From the catechism:

378 The sign of man’s familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden. There he lives “to till it and keep it”. Work is not yet a burden, but rather the collaboration of man and woman with God in perfecting the visible creation.

379 This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s plan, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.

So, we lose the ‘harmony’ in which we were created, through sin.

In addition, in the “Theology of the Body” teaching of St Pope John Paul II, he identifies that we’re not called to return to the garden, but rather, to look forward toward heaven.