How could Adam and Eve sin?

[OneSheep]

I think that the story is either false or it is not literal.

I think it is accurate to say that most modern scripture scholars do not take the story literally. Have you considered the possibility that the story is an allegory about the human acquisition of a conscience?

When I think about it, I realize that the human capacity for blindness (empathy blocking) necessitates the need for the conscience. We want stuff, power, status, etc. and when we want badly enough, empathy is blocked in the mind. While that empathy-blocking was beneficial when it involved struggle for resources between tribes, there had to be some mechanism by which people would self-control their drives for the goal of group-cooperation. Since part of the activity of the conscience is guilt/condemnation/desire to punish, “the gods” hesitated to simply give man the conscience mechanism.

Indeed, it was the desire-to-punish-wrongdoing aspect of the conscience that ultimately led to Jesus’ demise. While the conscience itself triggers in us a condemnation toward wrongdoers, Jesus shows us through His forgiveness that God does not condemn us in any case, not even while His own Son is suffering torture. He forgives.

Does that make sense?

 

[STT]

I believe that if God is love then He forgives us.

 

[OneSheep]

It’s not the conscience’s fault.

Somewhere you got the impression that I was blaming the conscience for something?

God’s working in us to perfect us, according to His wisdom. Sin opposes that and He works with us in the midst of it anyway. So the conscience doesn’t stifle us; it desires the same thing God desires in fact.

Yes, I agree. Would you say that when the conscience triggers guilt in us, that God is also condemning us?

Sin/evil simply won’t be acceptable in the end-why would it?

You are thinking that “in the end” people will still sin. You are also thinking that there is an ultimate “unacceptableness”, that something is never forgiven?

As we will rightly, our justice/perfection is all the greater.

Do you agree that the grace of such right willing comes through awareness?

 

[OneSheep]

I believe that if God is love then He forgives us.

Sounds very reasonable.

Is God love? Have you experienced, even for a moment, a universal love within yourself and others?

 

[STT]

Sounds very reasonable.

Is God love? Have you experienced, even for a moment, a universal love within yourself and others?

I am trying hard to love others. It is kind of difficult sometimes though. But we can love others by consistent practice.

 

[OneSheep]

I am trying hard to love others. It is kind of difficult sometimes though. But we can love others by consistent practice.

Well, the reason for my question is that you said “if” God is love. The question I am asking is “IS” God love?

And yes, sometimes it is difficult to forgive. In the more difficult times I really rely on the words “forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Jesus saw their blindness and did not condemn them for it, He understood their position. To me, understanding the other’s position is a big help in forgiving. It is helpful to know that The Source of Love forgives in this way, that there is always something to understand and forgive, and forgive He does (in my view).

Does that resonate with your own experience?

 

[STT]

Well, the reason for my question is that you said “if” God is love. The question I am asking is “IS” God love?

And yes, sometimes it is difficult to forgive. In the more difficult times I really rely on the words “forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Jesus saw their blindness and did not condemn them for it, He understood their position. To me, understanding the other’s position is a big help in forgiving. It is helpful to know that The Source of Love forgives in this way, that there is always something to understand and forgive, and forgive He does (in my view).

Does that resonate with your own experience?

I don’t understand the purpose of Hell if God is Love. Even parents who love their children forgive their children when they do what they are warned not to do.

 

[OneSheep]

If your conscience is correctly form, it would.

So then truly, a correctly formed knowledge of good and evil is a gift from God, right?

 

[fhansen]

deleted post

 

[fhansen]

mrsdizzyd:

If your conscience is correctly form, it would.

So then truly, a correctly formed knowledge of good and evil is a gift from God, right?

That still requires our participation, our wanting it.

 

[fhansen]

Somewhere you got the impression that I was blaming the conscience for something?

Or perhaps not taking it as seriously as it deserves?

Yes, I agree. Would you say that when the conscience triggers guilt in us, that God is also condemning us?

The conscience, if properly formed, if clear, reacts with mental pain so to speak when some objectively wrong act is committed. As with physical pain it serves a purpose, of navigating us towards an appropriate means of healing. The Christian message demonstrates that we don’t have to live with a compromised or seared conscience; we don’t have to try to compensate for our sins or pretend they don’t exist. We don’t have to remain in our pride that resists the thought that we can do anything wrong. God forgives and accepts and loves unconditionally, a fact that changes everything if we humble ourselves and allow Him in.

You are thinking that “in the end” people will still sin. You are also thinking that there is an ultimate “unacceptableness”, that something is never forgiven?

The “unacceptableness” could only come from man, not God, where man refuses to accept mercy/forgiveness/love. The freedom to oppose and reject love is ever-present in man’s world, so the potential for existing without it must be a possibility.

Do you agree that the grace of such right willing comes through awareness?

Well, grace can help produce awareness but even there it’s a syncretistic process, God helping us will correctly and our responding by doing so; we can always resist/ reject God’s overtures.

 

[Latin]

Somewhere you got the impression that I was blaming the conscience for something?

Or perhaps not taking it as seriously as it deserves?

Yes, I agree.

OneSheep:

Do you agree that the grace of such right willing comes through awareness?

Well, grace may help produce awareness but even there it’s a syncretistic process, God helping us will correctly and our responding by doing so; we can always resist/ reject God’s overtures.

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I love your posts Fhansen, in my opinion, your posts always presents the heart of the matter.
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This time, I and the Catholic Soteriology doesn’t agree with the above last section of your statement; which is, “we can always resist/ reject God’s overtures.”
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If you don’t mind it Fhansen, I make it more detailed and in harmony with Catholic Soteriology as follows:

We can always resist/reject some kind of God’s gift of graces, but there are some kind of God’s gift of graces that no one ever rejected and no one will ever reject in all Christian history.

If my above statement is not in perfect harmony with Catholic Soteriology, please correct it.

Thank you in advance.
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Latin

 

[fhansen]

Well, to get to the heart of the soteriological matter one must go with sources such as the
Catechism, accepted as authoritative on such doctrinal issues.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

One of the chief sources for this understanding that man can resist and reject the grace of justification is the Council of Trent, session 6:

Canon 4.
If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.

So remember this critical theological fact: the will of man is not to be dismissed in regards to his justification and salvation; rather it’s the very prize; God didn’t override it in Eden and He won’t to this day; its rectitude is what He covets but will not force into alignment with His own, perfect, will. So Augustine could state this very Catholic fact in his Sermon 169:

"But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”

 

[Latin]

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call CCCS 1996-1998
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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Before our initial justification we were carnal, we were enmity with God, spiritual things were foolishness to us, we were slaves of sin, we were spiritually dead in our sins.
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To do any supernatural work or to make any supernatural decision (say yes to God’s call to heaven), FIRST we need Initial Justification which puts us into the state of grace.
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Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
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Until we are in the state of grace, we cannot make supernatural act or to make supernatural decision.
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Our Initial justification is an instant event, entirely the works of God by grace alone.)
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
… We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which PRECEDE justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.
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Initial Justification is an instant event, followed by Progressive Justification which is a life time event after baptism until we die.
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No one can reject Initial Justification for many reasons, one is it is an instant event and solely God’s work, furthermore every elect irrevocable saved at their Initial Justification (DE FIDE).
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CCC 1993 and Canon 4 speaking about Progressive Justification when the elect are actively cooperating with the graces of God which graces sometimes the elect can resist/reject which negatively effects the elect’s glory and position in heaven, but cannot effect their salvation.
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Latin

 

[fhansen]

Try to accept Catholic instruction for once on these matters Latin. A plethora of words does not change the fact that at the end of the day justification is syncretistic; both God’s and man’s will are involved, and free will necessarily means that man can override and deny God’s will on this matter. God desires that none shall perish (2 Pet 3:9), and yet we’re told that some will perish. On the matter of the human will in this case, you actually oppose Christian truth, truth that needs to be understood correctly.

 

[fhansen]

CCC 1993 and Canon 4 speaking about Progressive Justification when the elect are actively cooperating with the graces of God which graces sometimes the elect can resist/reject which negatively effects the elect’s glory and position in heaven, but cannot effect their salvation.

Sorry, but that is just so much contrived Reformed garbage!

 

[OneSheep]

That still requires our participation, our wanting it.

The conscience develops independent of human want, correct? But certainly humanity is in “want” of a conscience (knowledge of good and evil) in order to keep so many of our drives in check. Eve saw that having a conscience was good, and she ate of the fruit. The desire to punish wrongdoing, which is part of the working of the conscience, is quite functional but includes a rather expensive trade-off for our species. Injustice is seen, and the desire to punish is subsequent, automatic.

The consequences put upon A&E were immediate, reactionary even. The conscience does this, right? It first “banishes” the wrongdoer as unacceptable.

One has to see the amazing contrast between the story of A&E, where God punishes a simple defiance, and the story of the crucifixion, in which God forgives the murderers of His own son.

Do you see what I am seeing? That the cross stands as a call to transcend our own nature, especially our desire to punish?

 

[Latin]

Latin:

CCC 1993 and Canon 4 speaking about Progressive Justification when the elect are actively cooperating with the graces of God which graces sometimes the elect can resist/reject which negatively effects the elect’s glory and position in heaven, but cannot effect their salvation.

Sorry, but that is just so much contrived Reformed garbage!

God bless you Fhansen and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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God’s elect’s call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of the elect’s intellect and will.
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One question for you Fhansen to RESOLVE the matter:
Is it possible that an elect of God lose his/her salvation and end up in hell.

The answer can be a clear yes or no. So, the answer is yes or no?
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Thank you for your answer.
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Latin

 

[OneSheep]

As with physical pain it serves a purpose, of navigating us towards an appropriate means of healing.

This is purpose of the conscience? Could you provide an example?

I think you may be including empathy or love under the conscience umbrella, and that is a new one for me (not that it is ‘wrong’, brother). Are you thinking that love and empathy are part of the conscience, versus part of what informs the conscience?

The Christian message demonstrates that we don’t have to live with a compromised or seared conscience; we don’t have to try to compensate for our sins or pretend they don’t exist. We don’t have to remain in our pride that resists the thought that we can do anything wrong. God forgives and accepts and loves unconditionally, a fact that changes everything if we humble ourselves and allow Him in.

I compliment you on this expression of the Christian message!

Well, grace can help produce awareness but even there it’s a syncretistic process, God helping us will correctly and our responding by doing so; we can always resist/ reject God’s overtures.

Are you thinking that a person who is completely aware may reject God’s overtures? Perhaps, if the person was self-loathing. Is a self-loathing person aware at all?

 

[fhansen]

Adam & Eve already had a conscience prior to eating of the fruit. The knowledge they gained was not a conscience but rather the direct, experiential knowledge of both good and evil, evil being something they hadn’t experienced prior to their own first sin, a sin that changed their world by distancing themselves for their Creator. Good was simply the order of the day back then. Man conceived a “distorted image of God” with that first sin according to Church teachings, a distortion that remains in us to this day until we begin to see more clearly just Who God really is by the light of the gospel.

But justice must still be called for in any case-evil won’t be allowed to play its hand eternally. If one wishes to remain in their sin, they can do so. If one will accept the forgiveness of God, yes, their world is transformed back towards the innocence we lose when at odds with our Creator. Their guilt was real-they needed to let go of it and the cause behind it. We become driven by our own desires when we’re willing to do something even while knowing or suspecting that it’s wrong.