How could Adam and Eve sin?

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I think we can agree on the fact that Adam and Eve were created perfect. They were rational beings. They also were created Free. The questions is: How they could act against their nature, rationality? Their nature was perfect and not corrupted so they could not act against themselves.

So why we do against our nature? Our nature dictate that we should try to save ourselves.

original sin, makes us all vulnerable to sin.

 

[STT]

original sin, makes us all vulnerable to sin.

Why did Adam and Eve sin? They knew that they would die.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

original sin, makes us all vulnerable to sin.

Why did Adam and Eve sin? They knew that they would die.

As you may recall, Satan put the challenge to them… he said surely God won’t do what He said. He knows you’ll be just like Him… and that’s how he plays people .

 

[STT]

As you may recall, Satan put the challenge to them… he said surely God won’t do what He said. He knows you’ll be just like Him… and that’s how he plays people .

Yes. There are however a few problems here:

1. They were fooled so why they were punished?
2. Why did God let Satan into the garden?
3. What caused Satan to sin?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

As you may recall, Satan put the challenge to them… he said surely God won’t do what He said. He knows you’ll be just like Him… and that’s how he plays people .

Yes. There are however a few problems here:

1. They were fooled so why they were punished?
2. Why did God let Satan into the garden?
3. What caused Satan to sin?

Re:

1. They were punished because they disobeyed God.
2. After Satan was tested, he failed, and was thrown out of heaven, Satan then became the test for A&E
3. see #'s 391 & 395 from Satan

BTW open links. That way things don’t have to be repeated

 

[STT]

They were punished because they disobeyed God.

I am afraid that is not satisfactory answer. We don’t punish people who got fooled.

After Satan was tested, he failed, and was thrown out of heaven, Satan then became the test for A&E

So God allowed Satan to cheat Adam and Eve knowing that they would fail?

see #'s 391 & 395 from Satan

Why Satan act against His nature? He was created good. He chose eternal damnation instead of God in exchange to nothing?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

They were punished because they disobeyed God.

I am afraid that is not satisfactory answer. We don’t punish people who got fooled.

So your life has gone swimmingly? No problems at all? You never paid any price for screw ups you made?

After Satan was tested, he failed, and was thrown out of heaven, Satan then became the test for A&E

STT:

So God allowed Satan to cheat Adam and Eve knowing that they would fail?

God didn’t cheat anyone. He told A & E exactly what would happen to them if they disobeyed.

see #'s 391 & 395 from Satan

STT:

Why Satan act against His nature? He was created good. He chose eternal damnation instead of God in exchange to nothing?

Satan had choice. Just like all of us have choice. As God put it,

“Today I put before you life and death blessing and curses, CHOOSE LIFE”.

THAT means one COULD choose death, and obviously people DO.

I’m talking about the next life, since this life is mortal, everyone dies, but we are also immortal in our souls. The soul lives forever with memory intellect and will fully functional. So one needs to ask where is forever for THEM going to be. Heaven or HELL

 

[STT]

So your life has gone swimmingly? No problems at all? You never paid any price for screw ups you made?

They didn’t screw up anybody’s life. They just simply believe that God is not going to punish them. They obviously didn’t know that Satan is a deceiver otherwise they wouldn’t follow Him. Why they should be punished for having wrong belief?

God didn’t cheat anyone. He told A & E exactly what would happen to them if they disobeyed.

I didn’t say that God cheated them.

Satan had choice. Just like all of us have choice. As God put it,

I am saying that choosing eternal suffering instead of eternal happiness is irrational. Satan was a rational individual. So why He didn’t choose God being aware of the consequence? People choose Christianity believing in the consequence of rejection or accepting of God. There are people who are not Christian but they simply don’t believe Christian God. So as you can see people rationally choose a path based on their belief. Satan however knew that God is true so to me the story of rejection of God doesn’t sound logical. Does it to you?

 

[ShowersofRoses]

They didn’t screw up anybody’s life. They just simply believe that God is not going to punish them. They obviously didn’t know that Satan is a deceiver otherwise they wouldn’t follow Him. Why they should be punished for having wrong belief?

They believed Satan’s claim that they WOULD BE LIKE GOD, knowing good and evil. The same sin of pride that Satan committed against God, that caused him to be flung out of Heaven.

They were not punished for a false belief…they were punished for disobeying one, very clear rule. They only had one rule, and yet they believed they knew better than God.

What happens in basic training when a soldier breaks a rule? Does he get a free pass and a pat on the back…hey, better luck next time? I don’t think so.

Adam and Eve’s decision brought sin into the world. They corrupted planet Earth with sin, which until that point had been pure. They contaminated their future children with original sin, and they destroyed their perfect communion with the Creator of the Universe by doing the very thing He told them not to do. Listening to Satan’s voice was not an excuse…they are the ones who messed up and God gave them a just punishment.

 

[Gorgias]

So even worst. They had better chance to resist sin if they were created perfect. Instead they were created very good which means that they had less chance to resist sin.

No… I would classify it as “even better”. If God created us perfect, then we would have no role in the unfolding of salvation history – we’d just be perfect little robots, without the ability to choose God in a meaningful way. (The image I have is the one of an election in a communistic or dictatorship nation. Oh, they have an election, all right… but when there’s only one choice, what kind of election is that, anyway?)

 

[STT]

They didn’t screw up anybody’s life. They just simply believe that God is not going to punish them. They obviously didn’t know that Satan is a deceiver otherwise they wouldn’t follow Him. Why they should be punished for having wrong belief?

My comment was related to steve-b’s comment in post #24: “As you may recall, Satan put the challenge to them… he said surely God won’t do what He said. He knows you’ll be just like Him… and that’s how he plays people.”

So they were told a lie and they simply believe it.

 

[STT]

No… I would classify it as “even better”. If God created us perfect, then we would have no role in the unfolding of salvation history – we’d just be perfect little robots, without the ability to choose God in a meaningful way. (The image I have is the one of an election in a communistic or dictatorship nation. Oh, they have an election , all right… but when there’s only one choice, what kind of election is that, anyway?)

So we will be simple robots at the end of salvation journey when we become perfect? If so, why bother and create imperfect beings. You in both case become a robot in one case you suffer and in another case you live your wonderful life with God.

 

[steve-b]

So your life has gone swimmingly? No problems at all? You never paid any price for screw ups you made?

Neither did Satan, neither did Adam & Eve, etc etc etc believe God would punish them… AND HE DID

STT:

They obviously didn’t know that Satan is a deceiver otherwise they wouldn’t follow Him. Why they should be punished for having wrong belief?

Point being they didn’t believe GOD. They didn’t obey GOD. So they received what God told them would happen to them

STT:

God didn’t cheat anyone. He told A & E exactly what would happen to them if they disobeyed.

I didn’t say that God cheated them.

Satan had choice. Just like all of us have choice. As God put it,

I am saying that choosing eternal suffering instead of eternal happiness is irrational. Satan was a rational individual. So why He didn’t choose God being aware of the consequence? People choose Christianity believing in the consequence of rejection or accepting of God. There are people who are not Christian but they simply don’t believe Christian God. So as you can see people rationally choose a path based on their belief. Satan however knew that God is true so to me the story of rejection of God doesn’t sound logical. Does it to you?

It’s about acknowledging God and who He is, and obedience to Him.

BTW, I gave you the Catechism link on this section of the conversation. It puts things simply. May I suggest reading past the 2 items #'s 391 & 395 that I gave and read the entire page

God’s grace converts people. And what you do with the information I give in various sources given, is up to you.

P.S.

Just thought of this.

You won’t be familiar with footnotes referring to abbreviations to papal encyclicals.

Example: footnote 288, GS 13 § 1.

GS = Gaudium et Spes 13 paragraph 1

 

[Gorgias]

So we will be simple robots at the end of salvation journey when we become perfect?

Nope. Think of it this way: when you go to the restaurant, and carefully consider the menu and then make a choice, do you become a “simple robot” when you get your food and receive the results of your choices?

Of course not! You simply no longer are in the act of ‘choosing’, but are in the act of experiencing the outcomes of your choice. That doesn’t mean that you are no longer capable of free will choices… but just that, having exercised your choice, there is no longer a choice to be made.

 

[STT]

STT:

They didn’t screw up anybody’s life. They just simply believe that God is not going to punish them.

Neither did Satan, neither did Adam & Eve, etc etc etc believe God would punish them… AND HE DID

Well, all I am saying is that we shouldn’t punish people for having wrong belief.

STT:

They obviously didn’t know that Satan is a deceiver otherwise they wouldn’t follow Him. Why they should be punished for having wrong belief?

Point being they didn’t believe GOD. They didn’t obey GOD. So they received what God told them would happen to them

Then there is a conflict in ideas here. You are pressing on your point and ignoring mine.

STT:

I didn’t say that God cheated them.

Satan had choice. Just like all of us have choice. As God put it,

STT:

I am saying that choosing eternal suffering instead of eternal happiness is irrational. Satan was a rational individual. So why He didn’t choose God being aware of the consequence? People choose Christianity believing in the consequence of rejection or accepting of God. There are people who are not Christian but they simply don’t believe Christian God. So as you can see people rationally choose a path based on their belief. Satan however knew that God is true so to me the story of rejection of God doesn’t sound logical. Does it to you?

It’s about acknowledging God and who He is, and obedience to Him.

BTW, I gave you the Catechism link on this section of the conversation. It puts things simply. May I suggest reading past the 2 items #'s 391 & 395 that I gave and read the entire page

God’s grace converts people. And what you do with the information I give in various sources given, is up to you.

P.S.

Just thought of this.

You won’t be familiar with footnotes referring to abbreviations to papal encyclicals.

Example: footnote 288, GS 13 § 1.

Thanks. I already read them.

 

[STT]

So we will be simple robots at the end of salvation journey when we become perfect?

That is not a good example. A menu containing eternal suffering and eternal happiness. Of course everybody would go for eternal happiness if they believe that the restaurant is claiming right. Now, the question is how could people choose later instead of former? Of course they wouldn’t if they believe so.

 

[goout]

Gorgias:

So we will be simple robots at the end of salvation journey when we become perfect?

That is not a good example. A menu containing eternal suffering and eternal happiness. Of course everybody would go for eternal happiness if they believe that the restaurant is claiming right. Now, the question is how could people choose later instead of former? Of course they wouldn’t if they believe so.

The heart of your question goes to the nature of relationship, not logical reductionism.
Your difficulty is you are reducing relationship to pure logic.
In a relationship, the choices of one person affect the relationship.The choices of one person have consequences for the relationship. It’s as if the relationship is a third person, and it will flourish or whither with the choices and response of the persons.

These choices can be logical and seem obvious to you, but carrying out the best course of action is the free act of a person.
Persons are not subjects of logical constructs in your mind. When you attempt to subject persons to logical constructs you chase your tail in words and philosophies, as we are doing here. What you are doing is like attempting to hold water in your fingers. You can try mightily, but the mind is like a sieve when it comes to apprehending real persons and the relationship between them.

God extends his infinite goodness to his creatures.
I - Thou. Just like marriage. His creatures fail to perfectly reciprocate by free choice. We reject the perfection of relationship with God, preferring to “go it alone”. This disrupts the
“I -Thou”.

You keep insisting that God should preserve his creatures from the consequences of these free choices. But you know in your heart that is not love, right? A preserved heart is a dead heart, not a beating heart.
God is love, not mere logic. Love does not coerce others. God does not “rape” people. He allows us continual freedom to choose him, to reciprocate. (this is the basis of morality: choosing the good)

 

[goout]

God punishing others is an anthropomorphism. Yes, the fundamentalists will point to scripture passages indicating a punishing God.
It is a way of expressing the deep sense of loss that is a consequence of disordered free will. In the Incarnation we see that God does not desire the death of relationship, but rather God “waters it” and gives it life with his blood.

The loss of relationship is it’s own punishment. Nothing needs to be inflicted by God. One symptom of our disorder is the abdication of human responsibility. Human beings don’t like to face the consequences of free will, we would rather blame them on God. After all, this thread indicates that it is very difficult to look in the mirror and accept the profound nature of free will, and the consequences that it’s exercise has for us.
It can be painful to accept.
And without a belief in the grace of God, the responsibility of free will can seem crushing.

 

[STT]

The heart of your question goes to the nature of relationship, not logical reductionism.
Your difficulty is you are reducing relationship to pure logic.
In a relationship, the choices of one person affect the relationship .The choices of one person have consequences for the relationship. It’s as if the relationship is a third person , and it will flourish or whither with the choices and response of the persons.

These choices can be logical and seem obvious to you, but carrying out the best course of action is the free act of a person.
Persons are not subjects of logical constructs in your mind. When you attempt to subject persons to logical constructs you chase your tail in words and philosophies, as we are doing here. What you are doing is like attempting to hold water in your fingers. You can try mightily, but the mind is like a sieve when it comes to apprehending real persons and the relationship between them.

God extends his infinite goodness to his creatures.
I - Thou . Just like marriage. His creatures fail to perfectly reciprocate by free choice. We reject the perfection of relationship with God, preferring to “go it alone”. This disrupts the
“I -Thou”.

You keep insisting that God should preserve his creatures from the consequences of these free choices. But you know in your heart that is not love, right? A preserved heart is a dead heart, not a beating heart.
God is love , not mere logic. Love does not coerce others. God does not “rape” people. He allows us continual freedom to choose him, to reciprocate. (this is the basis of morality: choosing the good)

The heart of my claim goes to nature of free will and rationality. Free will cannot be biased by options therefore it comes to play when options are equally liked. Otherwise we follow rationality. You can check it yourself next time you decide something or follow your rational thought.

 

[goout]

The heart of my claim goes to nature of free will and rationality. Free will cannot be biased by options therefore it comes to play when options are equally liked. Otherwise we follow rationality. You can check it yourself next time you decide something or follow your rational thought.

Your claim is an attempt to subject persons to logical constructs, rather that accepting them as participants in relationship. It cannot begin to work, and the attempt is itself irrational.