How could Adam and Eve sin?

[STT]

Your claim is an attempt to subject persons to logical constructs, rather that accepting them as participants in relationship. It cannot begin to work, and the attempt is itself irrational.

Did you do what I have suggested? Are you suggesting that free will is corrupt always? We don’t need it when rationality point to a good thing.

 

[goout]

goout:

Your claim is an attempt to subject persons to logical constructs, rather that accepting them as participants in relationship. It cannot begin to work, and the attempt is itself irrational.

Did you do what I have suggested? Are you suggesting that free will is corrupt always? We don’t need it when rationality point to a good thing.

You are suggesting that free will should not be free, it should be deterministic.
That’s not free will, that’s slavery. That’s not love, it’s subjecting persons to your own logical constructs. In the face of real relationships, these constructs dissolve to nothing. They cannot contain persons.

You accept slavery when you say “We don’t need free will… if rationality points to a good thing”.
Do you promote slavery?

 

[STT]

You are suggesting that free will should not be free, it should be deterministic.

I didn’t say so. How did you conclude that?

That’s not free will, that’s slavery. That’s not love, it’s subjecting persons to your own logical constructs. In the face of real relationships, these constructs dissolve to nothing. They cannot contain persons.

You accept slavery when you say “We don’t need free will… if rationality points to a good thing”.
Do you promote slavery?

That is not slavery. I call it wisdom. Following your logic any rational being including God is a slave. Does God have free will? Of course He has. Does He sin? No.

 

[steve-b]

Well, all I am saying is that we shouldn’t punish people for having wrong belief.

If ignorance is innocent that’s a possible get outta jail free card…so to speak
If ignorance is culpable, then one is held responsible

From the CCC
1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

Let’s face it, information has never been in history, more accessible, than it is today.

 

[STT]

If ignorance is innocent that’s a possible get outta jail free card…so to speak
If ignorance is culpable, then one is held responsible

From the CCC
1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

Let’s face it, information has never been in history, more accessible, than it is today.

Yes. I agree with what you stated.

 

[runningdude]

That is the very root of sin, the deliberate and unforced choice to defy God.

 

[fhansen]

People, with adequate knowledge and intelligence, make wrong choices all the time, based on their personal values at the time. And values can change over time. I’d submit that this is the very reason we’re here, to get a “value adjustment” until we’re finally, truly, jaded by all values lesser than God.

 

[Benadam]

Why did Adam and Eve sin? They knew that they would die.

They were deceived about that. They believed they were living a lie and were just told the truth.

 

[Gorgias]

Now, the question is how could people choose later instead of former?

People get to choose “accept God” or “reject God”. Once this choice is made in life, it cannot be revised in death.

“Eternal suffering” or “eternal happiness” are simply the consequences of the choice.

 

[STT]

People, with adequate knowledge and intelligence, make wrong choices all the time, based on their personal values at the time. And values can change over time. I’d submit that this is the very reason we’re here, to get a “value adjustment” until we’re finally, truly, jaded by all values lesser than God.

Well, value. When the tendency to a specific value is very strong enough we choose the value instead what we are supposed to, right thing, if we are weak enough.

 

[STT]

Why then God punish them knowing the fact that they have a wrong belief base on deception.

 

[STT]

You already explain that. You however didn’t answer my question.

 

[Vico]

I think we can agree on the fact that Adam and Eve were created perfect. They were rational beings. They also were created Free. The questions is: How they could act against their nature, rationality? Their nature was perfect and not corrupted so they could not act against themselves.

Good not perfect.

Catechism

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.161

374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.250 This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.251

1709 He who believes in Christ becomes a son of God. This filial adoption transforms him by giving him the ability to follow the example of Christ. It makes him capable of acting rightly and doing good. In union with his Savior, the disciple attains the perfection of charity which is holiness. Having matured in grace, the moral life blossoms into eternal life in the glory of heaven.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

People, with adequate knowledge and intelligence, make wrong choices all the time, based on their personal values at the time. And values can change over time. I’d submit that this is the very reason we’re here, to get a “value adjustment” until we’re finally, truly, jaded by all values lesser than God.

Well, value. When the tendency to a specific value is very strong enough we choose the value instead what we are supposed to, right thing, if we are weak enough.

We simply choose what we’ve come to value most highly. The more we move to making the right choices, the greater our own justice. Adam and Eve lost justice as a wrong choice was made. God set it up this way simply so that we participate in gaining or losing justice. We can “own” our perfection because of the possibility of disowning it. And our perfection comes to the extent that we value and choose God above all else-something Adam obviously missed at the beginning. We’re here now to find out what autonomy from God means; to witness how ourselves and the rest of the world really act when free from the constraints that a God would place on us, because here the Master’s out of town so to speak, “gone away”. We’re tested here, to find out for ourselves if Adam made the right choice. We’re expected to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness in a world where that quality is often missing simply due to the fact that man’s will alone reigns here in the moral sphere. We’re here to develop a hunger and thirst for God, to cultivate the highest value, to learn of our absolute need for Him, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing.’ (John 15:5). A creation that has come to value and love God for itself above all else, not without His help, is still a creation of a much higher order than it would otherwise be.

 

[STT]

Good not perfect.

That doesn’t resolve the problem.

 

[STT]

We simply choose what we’ve come to value most highly. The more we move to making the right choices, the greater our own justice. Adam and Eve lost justice as a wrong choice was made. God set it up this way simply so that we participate in gaining or losing justice. We can “own” our perfection because of the possibility of _dis_owning it. And our perfection comes to the extent that we value and choose God above all else-something Adam obviously missed at the beginning. We’re here now to find out what autonomy from God means; to witness how ourselves and the rest of the world really act when free from the constraints that a God would place on us, because here the Master’s out of town so to speak, “gone away”. We’re tested here, to find out for ourselves if Adam made the right choice. We’re expected to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness in a world where that quality is often missing simply due to the fact that man’s will alone reigns here in the moral sphere. We’re here to develop a hunger and thirst for God , to cultivate the highest value, to learn of our absolute need for Him, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing.’ (John 15:5). A creation that has come to value and love God for itself above all else, not without His help, is still a creation of a much higher order than it would otherwise be.

We live in the world of desire. We live in world of belief. There could be conflict of interest between desire and belief. We could also have wrong belief. All these can cause us to do what intrinsically wrong when we are not fully aware of consequences.

 

[fhansen]

And yet man is not some morally unaccountable beast. Somewhere along the line he’s responsible for his choices, for his justice, for his perfection, even if that can only happen as a consequence of being in union with God. Man’s- Adam’s-first mistake was to distance himself from God. So man’s first necessary right choice is to choose God, communion with Him. To the extent that this union is solidly in place, moral rectitude in general flows naturally. We’re here to learn first of all of our need for that union.

And, BTW, there are people raised in churches who’ve never seriously come to recognize this need.

 

[Benadam]

They were disobedient. They believed that God was evil. They turned on God and put a creature in His place. The punishments are the consequences of doing those things. God Himself came and made it right for us, took the punishment of death as well, so we wouldn’t have to suffer the consequences of our sin.

 

[fhansen]

Why then God punish them knowing the fact that they have a wrong belief base on deception.

Dopes gravity punish us when we step off a cliff? The consequences of man turning away from God are just that “natural”. Man was made for communion with God-justice and order call for it-and yet this world is obviously outside of this communion as a rule.

 

[STT]

And yet man is not some morally unaccountable beast. Somewhere along the line he’s responsible for his choices, for his justice, for his perfection, even if that can only happen as a consequence of being in union with God. Man’s- Adam’s -first mistake was to distance himself from God. So man’s first necessary right choice is to choose God, communion with Him. To the extent that this union is solidly in place, moral rectitude in general flows naturally. We’re here to learn first of all of our need for that union.

And, BTW, there are people raised in churches who’ve never seriously come to recognize this need.

I see all nice things in your wording. But what if a person has a wrong belief, as Adam and Eve had, thinking that God is evil? I would eat the fruit to become like God. Wouldn’t you?

By the way, how come they could die if they were like God?