How could Adam and Eve sin?

[STT]

God knew what would happen beforehand; He knew they’d step off the cliff, and had His plan of salvation- of ultimately perfecting His creation to put it another way - in place. The Fall of man is part of an overall bigger picture, one that posed no surprises for God. The Fall was merely a detour in one sense, and one God could obviously deal with.

Wasn’t God able to create a situation which sin was avoidable? Such as prohibiting Satan to enter the Garden or removing the tree? What is the point of all these suffering?

 

[STT]

Well, philosophically speaking, that’d be an untenable belief. ‘Evil’ is the absence of good, so you cannot have a single omnipotent god whose very nature is ‘privation’. Add to that the fact that the act of creation is an inherently good act, so an evil god would be acting against his very nature in order to create. (Remember Jesus’ words in the Bible? “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”)

So, I know that you want to set up a construct that goes something like this: “Choose God” → “eternal suffering”. Unfortunately, you’d need to find a construct that logically gets us there. Without it, you’re just setting up a counterfactual that doesn’t stand up to examination.

So according to you Satan does not exist since he does only evil.

 

[Gorgias]

So according to you Satan does not exist since he does only evil.

No. Read my comment again: you were positing that the single omnipotent god of the universe might be an evil god. I rebutted that statement.

If God is who we say He is, then yeah… there can be a creature who is the privation of good. That creature cannot, however, be god himself.

 

[STT]

We’re not computers; we have many different and sometimes conflicting desires and needs. In the case of man he can, due to free will, make a “want” into a “need”; he can decide for himself what is of most value, and, not being God, he can be wrong. So the overall lesson: man is not God, and man needs God.

Man’s only “fault” is that he’s not God. Man’s perfection includes definitively finding out that fact for himself.

So you are saying that you accept a lie knowing that you get screwed?

 

[STT]

Do you understand what freedom is?
What is freedom?
What is freedom’s relationship to love? Freedom’s relationship to responsibility?

What is the freedom that you are asking about in relation to Adam and Eve?

I understand all of these. These question are not however an answer to my questions.

 

[STT]

No. Read my comment again: you were positing that the single omnipotent god of the universe might be an evil god. I rebutted that statement.

If God is who we say He is, then yeah… there can be a creature who is the privation of good. That creature cannot, however, be god himself.

Oh, yeah. The old problem of privation of good. Do you experience evil, like when your finger is burnt?

 

[Gorgias]

Oh, yeah. The old problem of privation of good. Do you experience evil, like when your finger is burnt?

That’s known as a ‘natural evil’. Yes.

 

[fhansen]

I think this teaching is related:
398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.

Adam here made his desire into a must-have. Adam & Eve were different in some ways from us, and in other ways not at all different; they were fully human, as we are; their natures were the same. And we certainly share our “creaturely status” with them.

In order to understand the first sin I think we must look to that very question, why they failed to recognize their status vis a vis God, why they failed to recognize God as God to put it another way. And I can say that only a finite creature could make such a foolish mistake; man is not God, and therefore inherently, unavoidably, less perfect that God. That inferiority is what man must come to acknowledge, for his own good, and that same inferiority also provides the very ingredient that makes man potentially foolish enough to not acknowledge this fact. God can’t make another God.

And yet His ultimate purpose is to make lots of gods out of His creation, out of us, perfecting us over time, in His own way, as He helps us come to see the folly of Adam’s choice, aligning our wills with His, perfect, will. That’s why we’re here. This world in sort of an “incubator” for saints. Just some thoughts.

 

[STT]

That’s known as a ‘natural evil’. Yes.

How could you experience something which does not exist? According to you evil is complete privation of good. Only good and privation of good exists. Therefore evil does not exist.

 

[sudy]

You’re confusing the issue. Evil does exist. But God is all goodness and no evil exists within him. Satan is a created being not God. Man is a created being not God. There is no evil within God as he is the Creator.

Man and angels are not perfected beings… they are created. Only God is perfect. There is some goodness and perfection within us but there’s a hierarchy. God is perfect, we aren’t.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

We’re not computers; we have many different and sometimes conflicting desires and needs. In the case of man he can, due to free will, make a “want” into a “need”; he can decide for himself what is of most value, and, not being God, he can be wrong. So the overall lesson: man is not God, and man needs God.

Man’s only “fault” is that he’s not God. Man’s perfection includes definitively finding out that fact for himself.

So you are saying that you accept a lie knowing that you get screwed?

No, I’m saying they accepted a lie thinking they would get something even greater yet, to be God. They simply didn’t believe God in other words, because believing him meant acknowledging their reliance on him and they wanted equality, if not more.

 

[STT]

No, I’m saying they accepted a lie thinking they would get something even greater yet, to be God. They simply didn’t believe God in other words, because believing him meant acknowledging their reliance on him and they wanted equality, if not more.

So you are suggesting that they believe that Satan telling them the truth?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

It does answer to your assertion: “I think we can agree on the fact that Adam and Eve were created perfect.”

So you also ask: “How they could act against their nature, rationality? Their nature was perfect and not corrupted so they could not act against themselves.”

Well their nature was not perfect.
They were constituted with supernatural gifts of sanctifying grace and three preternatural gifts. One of those preternatural gifts was freedom from concupiscence. From Summa Theologiae 1.81.2 “The sentient appetite is generically one faculty, which is called sensuality; but it is divided into two powers, which are the species of the sentient appetite, viz., the irascible and the concupiscible.” So the fall was related to the irascible appetite – ira (anger). Pride it the sin of the fall, seeking to not trust God but to substitute oneself. This is a possibility with free will.

This is just twisting problem. It doesn’t solve the problem. Eventually those gifts either protect them against sin or not. Sinning is just matter of time if those gifts don’t protect them especially if you believe a lie.

Not a twist – free will allows for the individual to choose, but grace makes it possible to resist, against the unaided nature.

 

[STT]

Not a twist – free will allows for the individual to choose, but grace makes it possible to resist, against the unaided nature.

Could God sin considering the fact that He is free?

 

[Vico]

…
Could God sin considering the fact that He is free?

God is perfect so does not sin. Those having attained the Beatific Vision always choose not to sin. Adam and Eve did not have the Beatific Vision when they sinned.

Catechism

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been “in the nature of sacrament.” Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, “the holy city” of God, “the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community. The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion…

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

No, I’m saying they accepted a lie thinking they would get something even greater yet, to be God. They simply didn’t believe God in other words, because believing him meant acknowledging their reliance on him and they wanted equality, if not more.

So you are suggesting that they believe that Satan telling them the truth?

No, and yes. They believed what they wanted to believe, regardless of where the idea came from

 

[STT]

God is perfect so does not sin. Those having attained the Beatific Vision always choose not to sin. Adam and Eve did not have the Beatific Vision when they sinned.

So God could not sin?

Why God didn’t give Adam and Eve the Beatific Vision waiting until they sin?

 

[po18guy]

I think you answered your own question. Freedom. That includes the ability to choose to love, and to choose to hate. Neither is true unless freely chosen. Due to their lack of omniscience, the choices they made were imperfect and they were subject to both instruction and the leading astray. God instructed and the evil one - that vacuum which nature abhors - presented an option which appeared to have advantage, but in fact did not. Freedom carries the risks of the ability to deceive and be deceived - which they were.

 

[Gorgias]

How could you experience something which does not exist? According to you evil is complete privation of good. Only good and privation of good exists. Therefore evil does not exist.

Correct, inasmuch as evil does not have independent existence. However, by the same token, you could assert that “darkness” does not exist, since it is the absence of light. Yet, we can experience darkness, right?

Same thing here: we experience “the lack of _____” all the time. If we want to give that condition a particular name, then great. However, that doesn’t imply that we’re asserting positive existence.

 

[Gorgias]

So God could not sin?

God is all perfections so no, He cannot sin. It would be counter to His nature.

Why God didn’t give Adam and Eve the Beatific Vision waiting until they sin?

The experience of the Beatific Vision is the condition of heaven. Adam and Eve were on earth. We are, too, so… no Beatific Vision until heaven.