How could Adam and Eve sin?

[fhansen]

I think the Beatific Vision is sort of a reward-or more like the consequence-of obtaining, orienting ourselves towards, and growing in justice, by cooperating with grace, without the benefit of that full clear immediate knowledge, of that Vision. We grow in perfection if challenged by the evil that seeks to weigh us down and rob or detract from our justice/perfection, evil that we all experience-or know-to one degree or another here on this planet earth. God’s stretching us into perfection so to speak. And it cannot be achieved to any great degree unless we participate-in choosing and owning it for ourselves-something that couldn’t happen if God merely “made us that way”.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

God is perfect so does not sin. Those having attained the Beatific Vision always choose not to sin. Adam and Eve did not have the Beatific Vision when they sinned.

So God could not sin?

Why God didn’t give Adam and Eve the Beatific Vision waiting until they sin?

No, God cannot sin, being perfection and perfect love.

A person cannot logically be forced to love and the Beatific Vision is the fruit of that love.

 

[Benadam]

An evil God might put you in Hell if you follow Him. Do you still follow Him?

I can’t believe an evil God exists. If I find the God I follow is evil I conclude that I haven’t been following God.

 

[STT]

I think you answered your own question. Freedom. That includes the ability to choose to love, and to choose to hate. Neither is true unless freely chosen. Due to their lack of omniscience, the choices they made were imperfect and they were subject to both instruction and the leading astray. God instructed and the evil one - that vacuum which nature abhors - presented an option which appeared to have advantage, but in fact did not. Freedom carries the risks of the ability to deceive and be deceived - which they were.

We cannot freely choose to love or hate. Love and hate are part of our emotions. They are partly the result of our nature and partly the result of our relationships (if someone hurts you then you are going to hate him and vice versa).

 

[STT]

Correct, inasmuch as evil does not have independent existence. However, by the same token, you could assert that “darkness” does not exist, since it is the absence of light. Yet, we can experience darkness, right?

Same thing here: we experience “the lack of _____” all the time. If we want to give that condition a particular name, then great. However, that doesn’t imply that we’re asserting positive existence.

Suppose that God put you in Hell. And you endure extreme (not larger is possible) amount of pain. Hell is presumably evil. Does the pain is real? Good and evil comes together and opposite of each other otherwise a quality of neutral didn’t exist.

 

[STT]

The experience of the Beatific Vision is the condition of heaven. Adam and Eve were on earth. We are, too, so… no Beatific Vision until heaven.

Why God didn’t create Adam and Eve in Heave? Same as Satan and his group. Why did Satan fall?

 

[STT]

No, God cannot sin, being perfection and perfect love.

A person cannot logically be forced to love and the Beatific Vision is the fruit of that love.

God could create us in heaven and show His love to us. We would love Him in response and all problems are solved.

 

[STT]

I can’t believe an evil God exists. If I find the God I follow is evil I conclude that I haven’t been following God.

Well, I first suggest to assume that God is evil and you know that. Do you follow such a
God?

 

[Benadam]

Benadam:

I can’t believe an evil God exists. If I find the God I follow is evil I conclude that I haven’t been following God.

Well, I first suggest to assume that God is evil and you know that. Do you follow such a
God?

Yes. My reason for being is God’s.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

No, God cannot sin, being perfection and perfect love.

A person cannot logically be forced to love and the Beatific Vision is the fruit of that love.

God could create us in heaven and show His love to us. We would love Him in response and all problems are solved.

The Trinity created the world as it is with his perfect love and wisdom which allows for evil and good and free will rather than as you suggested.

Catechism

324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

 

[Gorgias]

Suppose that God put you in Hell.

OK, so… here’s your first error. God doesn’t “put” anyone in hell – at least, not against their will. People make the choice, and God allows it. So, right off the bat, there’s a problem with your premise.

And you endure extreme (not larger is possible) amount of pain. Hell is presumably evil. Does the pain is real?

The Church teaches that the primary pain of hell is separation from God – of knowing that you could have chosen God, but chose to reject Him instead, and therefore, having the knowledge that you rejected eternal salvation.

Good and evil comes together and opposite of each other otherwise a quality of neutral didn’t exist.

Not really sure how this follows from what preceded it.

Why God didn’t create Adam and Eve in Heave? Same as Satan and his group.

Man is human – physical. The angels are not physical – they’re pure spirit. Therefore, naturally, Man is created as part of creation – that is, in the universe, not in heaven.

Why did Satan fall?

Pride. He decided he knew better than God, and chose not to serve Him.

God could create us in heaven and show His love to us. We would love Him in response and all problems are solved.

Nope. In the presence of the infinite God, our response wouldn’t be love, per se, but just obedience and acquiescence. God wants our love, however.

 

[STT]

Yes. My reason for being is God’s.

Well. Then the next question is what if such a God put you in Hell for following Him? That was the situation that Adam and Eve were.

 

[Benadam]

Well. Then the next question is what if such a God put you in Hell for following Him? That was the situation that Adam and Eve were.

Except in their case God proved to be good.

 

[STT]

The Trinity created the world as it is with his perfect love and wisdom which allows for evil and good and free will rather than as you suggested.

You harvest what you plant.

 

[STT]

STT:

Suppose that God put you in Hell.

OK, so… here’s your first error. God doesn’t “put” anyone in hell – at least, not against their will. People make the choice, and God allows it. So, right off the bat, there’s a problem with your premise.

I knew that. Suppose that you choose evil versus good.

STT:

And you endure extreme (not larger is possible) amount of pain. Hell is presumably evil. Does the pain is real?

The Church teaches that the primary pain of hell is separation from God – of knowing that you could have chosen God, but chose to reject Him instead, and therefore, having the knowledge that you rejected eternal salvation.

Ok. How about your suffering whether it is separation from God or real fire?

STT:

Good and evil comes together and opposite of each other otherwise a quality of neutral didn’t exist.

Not really sure how this follows from what preceded it.

Do you agree that some quality such as neutrality exist?

STT:

Why God didn’t create Adam and Eve in Heave? Same as Satan and his group.

Man is human – physical. The angels are not physical – they’re pure spirit. Therefore, naturally, Man is created as part of creation – that is, in the universe, not in heaven.

You are eventually going to Heaven. So what was the barrier?

STT:

Why did Satan fall?

Pride. He decided he knew better than God, and chose not to serve Him.

He couldn’t sin in Heaven according to your teaching, the Beatific Vision.

STT:

God could create us in heaven and show His love to us. We would love Him in response and all problems are solved.

Nope. In the presence of the infinite God, our response wouldn’t be love , per se, but just obedience and acquiescence . God wants our love, however.

Yes, Our response would be love. You cannot decide your emotion.

 

[STT]

Except in their case God proved to be good.

Of course not. Stand fooled them. That is what you said in post #58.

 

[Gorgias]

Ok. How about your suffering whether it is separation from God or real fire?

It’s difficult to get around the notion of ‘fire’ in hell, simply because it’s described in that way Scripturally. However, the Church does say that the primary torment in hell is loss of God. So, if you think about it, that must be pretty bad, if being burned is merely in second place…

Do you agree that some quality such as neutrality exist?

I’m not certain that I do. If the endpoints on the spectrum are “pure good” and “pure absence of good”, then, by definition, anything that you would want to use as a midpoint and call “neutrality” would be some mixture of “good” and “absence”.

You are eventually going to Heaven.

Well… that’s quite an assumption! Heaven isn’t a ‘given’, you know, right?

So what was the barrier?

Our life on earth is part of God’s plan. At the very least, we know that it is the context in which we make a free choice for or against God. So, in those terms, the ‘barrier’ is that we haven’t made a choice.

He couldn’t sin in Heaven according to your teaching, the Beatific Vision.

That’s why theologians conclude that the angels did not possess the Beatific Vision prior to making their choice.

 

[STT]

STT:

Ok. How about your suffering whether it is separation from God or real fire?

It’s difficult to get around the notion of ‘fire’ in hell, simply because it’s described in that way Scripturally. However, the Church does say that the primary torment in hell is loss of God. So, if you think about it, that must be pretty bad , if being burned is merely in second place…

So it is real?

STT:

Do you agree that some quality such as neutrality exist?

I’m not certain that I do. If the endpoints on the spectrum are “pure good” and “pure absence of good”, then, by definition, anything that you would want to use as a midpoint and call “neutrality” would be some mixture of “good” and “absence”.

Neutral is just neutral and not a mix of good and absence.

STT:

You are eventually going to Heaven.

Well… that’s quite an assumption! Heaven isn’t a ‘given’, you know, right?

Yes, that is just an assumption.

STT:

So what was the barrier?

Our life on earth is part of God’s plan. At the very least, we know that it is the context in which we make a free choice for or against God. So, in those terms, the ‘barrier’ is that we haven’t made a choice.

And this plan was unavoidable?

STT:

He couldn’t sin in Heaven according to your teaching, the Beatific Vision.

That’s why theologians conclude that the angels did not possess the Beatific Vision prior to making their choice.

They conclude wrong. One cannot conclude otherwise when he are trapped. One must be consistent.

 

[Gorgias]

So it is real?

We’ll know that after we die. For now, all we have to go on are the descriptions given us in Scripture.

Neutral is just neutral and not a mix of good and absence.

Cannot be, by definition. Here’s your spectrum:

   <A>---------------<X>--------------------*---------------<Y>-------------------<G>

“A” is the point we’re describing as “complete absence of good”, while “G” is the point we’re describing as “complete presence of good.”

“X”, then, would be “more absence than presence” and “Y” would be “more presence than absence”.

How would you describe the midpoint ("*"), then? One could not offer “neither good nor bad”, since that means “the absence of the absence of good along with the absence of good”. That’s illogical. Perhaps “a balance – in some ways, good is present, and in others, it’s absent.”

And this plan was unavoidable?

This plan is God’s plan. We weren’t consulted on it.

They conclude wrong.

OK. That’s your opinion. I disagree.

One cannot conclude otherwise when he are trapped. One must be consistent.

Not sure where you see the inconsistency.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The Trinity created the world as it is with his perfect love and wisdom which allows for evil and good and free will rather than as you suggested.

You harvest what you plant.

Priestly Narrative
Genesis 1:26

26 Then God said: Let us make[a] human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth.

Yahwist Narrative
Genesis 2:15

15 The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.

St. Paul 1 Cor 9:24-25

24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.