How could good God create creatures with evil and good being?

[Bahman]

The reality of **all **evil persons is evident in the unnecessary suffering and death in the world - as in Nairobi - which deprives their victims of life and happiness. Do you agree? If not why not?

Unnecessary suffering? If evil comes from within then it is creation of God and there must be a strong reason for it.

 

[tonyrey]

Unnecessary suffering? If evil comes from within then it is creation of God and there must be a strong reason for it.

The reason for evil is freedom! We are not slaves but sons and daughters of our Father in heaven. Unlike animals we have the power to control ourselves and choose how to live.

 

[Bahman]

The reason for evil is freedom! We are not slaves but sons and daughters of our Father in heaven. Unlike animals we have the power to control ourselves and choose how to live.

So you agree that we are created with evil and good?

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Bahman:

So you agree that we are created with evil and good?

No, we are created with the potential for either. This potential (called free will) is in itself neutral.

Bahman:

How God could predict our action knowing that we have freewill.

This is dodging the last paragraph you quoted. God doesn’t predict our actions. He’s already seen them.

 

[Bahman]

No, we are created with the potential for either. This potential (called free will) is in itself neutral.

This potential is not free will. Free will is not a potential that could turn into action. Free will is just ability to choose between two options. I however agree that the tendency toward good and bad are like a potential like us, so once we arrive at a bad situation then evil could in principle could rise up and vice versa.

This is dodging the last paragraph you quoted. God doesn’t predict our actions. He’s already seen them.

This is beyond the topic of this thread, but how God could see the decision never made?

 

[tonyrey]

So you agree that we are created with evil and good?

We are created with the power to choose good or evil.

 

[Bahman]

We are created with the power to choose good or evil.

How you could have a sense/feeling that something is evil/good? I mean normally we had a bad feeling when we perfome something bad and vise versa. Moreover your definition provide a neutral definition of human being, neither good nor evil.

 

[RoseMary131]

My quest is to understand my self, creation and Self (God) without accepting any faith since I believe that our journey toward God, understanding self and creation is never paradox/anomaly free, hence we have to be open with new ideas, discuss them openly and accept them as temporary substrate to see and look farther.

I continue my quest by reading, thinking, discussing.

I unfortunately don’t believe on praying.

No I don’t believe on praying.

Our world hasn’t changed as result of praying .

I mean that Self is God and selves are us. Selves are created/given to us by God, and in potential has all the power to experience what God experience. Self and selves however is in different state of minds one controlling the creation and another experiencing creation.

God knows what is inside our mind, knows what we exactly need, so it doesn’t need that we ask for them. God would provide you what is needed.

To know yourself, so through that you could know your God.

we have the potential to become God otherwise the creation was not complete.

You said: Selves are created/given to us by God, and in potential has all the power to experience what God experience.

Are these selves that are created/ given to us by God in potential to have all the power to experience what God experience - are these selves limited to human or does potential to have all the power to experience what God experience also apply to other creations of God (animals, plants, mineral, angels, all of the universe and spiritual realm)?

This include animal, angels, insects, … all selves who have consciousness.

we can create other selves once we reach to appropriate level.

I have several problem with Christian God, one of the most important one is omniscience (strong) meaning that God knows our destiny.

What problem do you have with the Christian God knowing our destiny?

it is against our free will.

If in your potential you do become God - can you create other selves (other people) as well as other creation?

Yes, we can create other selves once we reach to appropriate level.

Bahman, you say you are on a quest to understand self, creation and Self (whom you also call God) without accepting any faith.

You say you have several problems with Christian God, one of the most important one is omniscience (strong) meaning that God knows our destiny because it is against our free will.

You say unfortunately you do not believe in praying and that our world has not changed as a result of praying.

You say that all of creation that has consciousness (animals, angels, insects) has the
potential to have all the power to experience what God experience.

You say we can create other selves once we reach to appropriate level.

Your ideas are very different than Catholic ideas. You say we have to be open with new ideas.

You ask members on CAF to explain questions to you about Catholic Theology. You seem not to accept any answers from Catholic Theology.

The basis (Theology) of the Catholic Faith is of God - the other aspects of the Faith (Theology) flow from God - since you reject the Catholic Theology of God - it is highly possible that you will reject and rebut and re-question most answers anyone gives you on any of your questions.

If you are not accepting of the very idea of God in Catholic Theology - how do you purpose to be open to ideas that are “new to you”?

 

[Bahman]

Bahman, you say you are on a quest to understand self, creation and Self (whom you also call God) without accepting any faith.

You say you have several problems with Christian God, one of the most important one is omniscience (strong) meaning that God knows our destiny because it is against our free will.

You say unfortunately you do not believe in praying and that our world has not changed as a result of praying.

You say that all of creation that has consciousness (animals, angels, insects) has the
potential to have all the power to experience what God experience.

You say we can create other selves once we reach to appropriate level.

Your ideas are very different than Catholic ideas. You say we have to be open with new ideas.

You ask members on CAF to explain questions to you about Catholic Theology. You seem not to accept any answers from Catholic Theology.

The basis (Theology) of the Catholic Faith is of God - the other aspects of the Faith (Theology) flow from God - since you reject the Catholic Theology of God - it is highly possible that you will reject and rebut and re-question most answers anyone gives you on any of your questions.

If you are not accepting of the very idea of God in Catholic Theology - how do you purpose to be open to ideas that are “new to you”?

I have several problems with Catholic theology yet I am open to them. I read the answers from people patiently and see if I can fit those ideas into my mind.

 

[RoseMary131]

I have several problems with Catholic theology yet I am open to them. I read the answers from people patiently and see if I can fit those ideas into my mind.

Bahman: “I have several problems with Catholic theology yet I am open to them. I read the answers from people patiently and see if I can fit those ideas into my mind.”

How do you express being open to Catholic theology?

What does reading the answers from people “patiently” mean?

From what I see on your threads and your posts within your threads: You are asking Catholics here on CAF for their thoughts on a subject. You reject what they say. You ask another question and you reject that idea as well.

All of the Theology begins with the Theology of God which you reject. Since you reject the very basis of the Faith - the Theology of GOD - how can any of the other ideas of Theology fit into your mind?

 

[Bahman]

How do you express being open to Catholic theology?

What does reading the answers from people “patiently” mean?

From what I see on your threads and your posts within your threads: You are asking Catholics here on CAF for their thoughts on a subject. You reject what they say. You ask another question and you reject that idea as well.

All of the Theology begins with the Theology of God which you reject. Since you reject the very basis of the Faith - the Theology of GOD - how can any of the other ideas of Theology fit into your mind?

Answer to your first question: As they are open to my objections. I try to read the answers and see if they make sense. I changed my faith before and I exactly know how a person react and answer to a question when he/she has a specific faith.

Answer to your second question: I try to read them carefully and see if they make sense.

Answer to your third question: The same apply to me, I provide them with one answer, they reject it, I provide another answer etc. Sometimes I explain my idea by question.

Answer to your fourth question: I still have the right to discuss my way of view in looking at concept of God, truth, etc with people in this forum and challenge their ideas through a friendly discussion.

 

[sergius89]

Bahman -

Have you ever thought about being an atheist? It seems to me that some of the issues discussed you have a problem with due to the fact that there is no evidence to support the issue. I understand this fact. Personally I believe in Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand. In short the philosophy is about only trusting in things that can be proven through empirical evidence. I find that for myself this philosophy has helped me greatly. I don’t pray anymore because as you stated prayer does nothing. It is merely hoping that things will change without doing anything about the situation. Prayer basically makes you feel good about doing nothing. You must take responsibility for your actions, good and bad. And yes, the philosophy is basically atheistic. I thought it would be difficult to stop believing in God but when you realize that you are in control of your life, not some mythical father figure, it is very freeing. One final thought:

When something happens and people pray to stop it, there are three explanations on why it will happen anyway:

1. God can’t stop it
2. God won’t stop it
3. God doesn’t exist

So this means

1. God is not all powerful and therefore the definition of God is false
2. God is not all good once again contradicting the definition of God
3. There is no God

Learn to think for your self.

 

[RoseMary131]

Originally Posted by RoseMary131 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*How do you express being open to Catholic theology?

What does reading the answers from people “patiently” mean?

From what I see on your threads and your posts within your threads: You are asking Catholics here on CAF for their thoughts on a subject. You reject what they say. You ask another question and you reject that idea as well.

All of the Theology begins with the Theology of God which you reject. Since you reject the very basis of the Faith - the Theology of GOD - how can any of the other ideas of Theology fit into your mind? *

Answer to your first question: As they are open to my objections. I try to read the answers and see if they make sense. I changed my faith before and I exactly know how a person react and answer to a question when he/she has a specific faith.

What faiths have you held?

You say “I exactly know how a person react and answer to a question when he/she has a specific faith.” You can think you know how a person reacts and answers - but you can not know - each person is different - each person reacts and answers differently. You are applying your own thought as the person’s thought - mindreading.

Explain how you can know exactly how a person reacts and answers when they have a specific faith.

Do you know all faiths - and all teachings of all faiths?

Answer to your second question: I try to read them carefully and see if they make sense.

The answers you read may not make sense to you as the answers are based on Catholic Theology. You reject the beginnings of Catholic Theology - which begins with God. It is highly possible that you will reject the rest of the Theology when you reject its beginning.

Those who answer you with Catholic Theology - will include answers based on faith. Faith does not need “to make sense” with the brain. To be open implies to be open to “what making sense” actually means.

What does “see if they (the answers) make sense” mean to you?

You are asking Catholics here on CAF for their thoughts on a subject. You reject what they say. You ask another question and you reject that idea as well.

Answer to your third question: The same apply to me, I provide them with one answer, they reject it, I provide another answer etc. Sometimes I explain my idea by question.

When you ask your questions (start new threads), many of the posters may not realize why you are asking and from what background you are asking. You could provide a bit of information that would help the person know more about your questions. Example Stating: “I do not beleive in the God of Christianity nor in prayer. My question is:…”

Some people take much time to respond - they may think you are a Catholic who wants more information. They may think you are a non-Catholic Christian who wants more information. They may base their answer on the assumption you believe in the God that they know.

It would be very courteous of you to provide the information in the first post of each of your threads - stating that first and foremost you do not have believe in the God of Christianity or in prayer. In that manner, you are open about your beliefs. Maybe you will get answers that are directed more to your quest.

Since you are on this quest without accepting any faith - those who are responding should know what path you are walking.

The posters are responding with the teaching of Catholic Theology. It is our belief that this Theology is Truth - not something that is open for Bahman’s rejection. Your rejections is not a rejection of their personal idea - but a rejection of Catholic Theology. You should be open to expressing that you reject Catholic Theology in your opening post of each thread.

Sometimes I explain my idea by question.

A question does not explain an idea. So, with your question - you have not explained your idea.

A side question: Is English your first language?

Answer to your fourth question: I still have the right to discuss my way of view in looking at concept of God, truth, etc with people in this forum and challenge their ideas through a friendly discussion.

You would be courteous to be upfront and express first that you do not accept Catholic Theology, you do not accept the God of Christianity. By expressing this, you let the people in this forum know where to start their answers.

Many people may be willing to answer questions and explain the teachings of the Catholic Faith - but have no interest in Bahman’s challenge that the teachings of God and Truth are wrong. Some people if they knew where you were starting may not be interested in your challenges of the ideas of Catholic Theology.

Some people may be willing to have “friendly discussion” and “challenge” back and forth with you on the teachings of Catholic Doctrine. Please be up front about your beliefs.

When you reject the idea of the Christian God from the start, you very likely will reject most ideas based on the Truth of God.

To be open to ideas with the idea not to accept any faith - is very closed - closed to being open to ideas.

 

[RoseMary131]

I continue my quest by reading, thinking, discussing.

I unfortunately don’t believe on praying.

Try this link for your reading and thinking in your quest to know self, creation, and Self (as you call God).
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm

 

[RoseMary131]

More for your reading and thinking on your quest.

Read and think on the whole page including Paragraph 391.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

 

[SentinelofTruth]

sergius89:

When something happens and people pray to stop it, there are three explanations on why it will happen anyway:

1. God can’t stop it
2. God won’t stop it
3. God doesn’t exist

So this means

1. God is not all powerful and therefore the definition of God is false
2. God is not all good once again contradicting the definition of God
3. There is no God

Learn to think for your self.

1. God is not necessarily defined as being omnipotent. The egyptians worshipped non-omnipotent gods.
2. Same response here. The egyptian gods were not benevolent either.
3. This, therefore, does not follow.
   Also, you seem to have falsely assumed that if people pray that God will stop something and he doesn’t stop it, then he must not exist. This is not true. Our prayers do not control God. Just because I refuse to do something for you doesn’t mean I don’t exist.

 

[Starrsmother]

1. God is not necessarily defined as being omnipotent. The egyptians worshipped non-omnipotent gods.
2. Same response here. The egyptian gods were not benevolent either.
3. This, therefore, does not follow.
   Also, you seem to have falsely assumed that if people pray that God will stop something and he doesn’t stop it, then he must not exist. This is not true. Our prayers do not control God. Just because I refuse to do something for you doesn’t mean I don’t exist.

When this post began–I honestly believed the author was sincere and looking for answers. I now suspect what we have here is some younger person who is trolling and enjoys arguing with adults for the pure pleasure of arguing. Maybe the writer should forget all about his/her religious questions and go duck hunting or such?

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Starrsmother:

When this post began–I honestly believed the author was sincere and looking for answers. I now suspect what we have here is some younger person who is trolling and enjoys arguing with adults for the pure pleasure of arguing. Maybe the writer should forget all about his/her religious questions and go duck hunting or such?

This is a fine paragraph in which to call someone else a troll. I don’t know if you were talking about me or Bahman, but I don’t think this pile of uncalled-for insults is true of either of us. Saying stuff like this- especially when it’s in place of a argument against the opponent’s reasoning rather than in addition to it- is what makes you a troll. Besides, religious questions are the most important kind- by a lightyear. No religious question is bad. The thirst for knowledge is a mark of the sincere desire to find truth- so that one may serve it. Don’t you ever tell anyone to forget about their religious questions an go duck hunting.

 

[Starrsmother]

This is a fine paragraph in which to call someone else a troll. I don’t know if you were talking about me or Bahman, but I don’t think this pile of uncalled-for insults is true of either of us. Saying stuff like this- especially when it’s in place of a argument against the opponent’s reasoning rather than in addition to it- is what makes you a troll. Besides, religious questions are the most important kind- by a lightyear. No religious question is bad. The thirst for knowledge is a mark of the sincere desire to find truth- so that one may serve it. Don’t you ever tell anyone to forget about their religious questions an go duck hunting.

Just my opinion. The concept of free will has been explained in great detail over and over and the author who started the thread doesn’t seem to grasp it. I apologize for my two cents–will butt out and let you guys continue your little argument. Please enjoy…

 

[Bahman]

Bahman -

Have you ever thought about being an atheist? It seems to me that some of the issues discussed you have a problem with due to the fact that there is no evidence to support the issue. I understand this fact. Personally I believe in Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand. In short the philosophy is about only trusting in things that can be proven through empirical evidence. I find that for myself this philosophy has helped me greatly. I don’t pray anymore because as you stated prayer does nothing. It is merely hoping that things will change without doing anything about the situation. Prayer basically makes you feel good about doing nothing. You must take responsibility for your actions, good and bad. And yes, the philosophy is basically atheistic. I thought it would be difficult to stop believing in God but when you realize that you are in control of your life, not some mythical father figure, it is very freeing. One final thought:

When something happens and people pray to stop it, there are three explanations on why it will happen anyway:

1. God can’t stop it
2. God won’t stop it
3. God doesn’t exist

So this means

1. God is not all powerful and therefore the definition of God is false
2. God is not all good once again contradicting the definition of God
3. There is no God

Learn to think for your self.

I was atheist for several years, having a couple faiths but eventually decided to go without faith as I believe that God as the baseline for any faith could never be comprehended by us. Thank you very much for your writing anyway.