How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[JonathonofOhio]

The ONLY flesh from which Jesus accomplished His earthly incarnation was the flesh of Mary. Therefore Mary was the sinful flesh referred to in Romans 8:3. The fact that Gabriel said that Mary was “full of grace” simply refered to the fact that she accepted God’s plan for her salvation, clearly illustrated in the sacraficial system of the sanctuary.

Wow, was that a fallacious argument!

Argument By Dismissal - You dismissed my proposed contradictions to your interpretation of scripture without even addressing what I said about Romans 6:14 in regards to Mary being full of grace. You also failed to provide any biblical proof of your reasoning in regards to what you think Mary being full of grace means. You simply state it refers to her accepting God’s plan for her salvation without providing any biblical references that support this interpretation. Where does full of Grace mean ‘accepting God’s plan of salvation’ anywhere in the bible?

Your statement "His earthly incarnation was the flesh of Mary. Therefore Mary was the sinful flesh " is simply following the fallacy of Begging The Question (Assuming The Answer, Tautology). You assume your statement ‘His earthly incarnation was the flesh of Mary’ as fact without any valid proof, and then based your conclusion off your own assumption. You basically assume the answer. Besides, Jesus is first born of all creation, begotten not made, and was before Mary! Therefore, Jesus is not of Mary’s flesh, but Mary is of His flesh just as Eve was of Adams flesh.

And as a poster above me is saying…How did Mary come about accepting God’s plan of salvation prior to having knowledge of it?

 

[Nicea325]

Wow, was that a fallacious argument!

Argument By Dismissal - You dismissed my proposed contradictions to your interpretation of scripture without even addressing what I said about Romans 6:14 in regards to Mary being full of grace. You also failed to provide any biblical proof of your reasoning in regards to what you think Mary being full of grace means. You simply state it refers to her accepting God’s plan for her salvation without providing any biblical references that support this interpretation. Where does full of Grace mean ‘accepting God’s plan of salvation’ anywhere in the bible?

Your statement "His earthly incarnation was the flesh of Mary. Therefore Mary was the sinful flesh " is simply following the fallacy of Begging The Question (Assuming The Answer, Tautology). You assume your statement ‘His earthly incarnation was the flesh of Mary’ as fact without any valid proof, and then based your conclusion off your own assumption. You basically assume the answer. Besides, Jesus is first born of all creation, made before Mary! Therefore, Jesus is not of Mary’s flesh, but Mary is of His flesh.

An as the poster above me said, “How did Mary come about accepting God’s plan of salvation prior to having knowledge of it?”

I too want to know where “full of Grace” means ‘accepting God’s plan of salvation’ is taught explicitly in the bible?

 

[brumano]

Mary says, “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Saviour. Also too Paul tells us that ALL have fallen short of the grace of God. It looks to me that (of course) Scripture is consistent on this.

The short answer is that Mary is redeemed before the foundation of the earth long prior to her immaculate conception, this is the only person who meritted this and was given clemency from all stain of original sin so as it was necessary for her to be the Holy Ark of the New Covenant and the Spouse of The Holy Spirit. Mary Immaculate is so absoloutely necessary and illustratrative really,of God’s own glory and greatness it just surpasses all words and understanding.
The Lord Jesus and His Mother Mary do not have a sinful nature as ALL the rest of us have and so it goes without saying by St.Paul in this passage that the Lord, whom he does not make mention of by name either is excluded of course, Mary is made Holy and she is like unto Jesus in Holiness so she is also understood naturally to be excluded from ALL “who have fallen short of the glory of God”.*
*(this is my recollection of the true scripture as reading: “the glory of” not the “grace of” God).

 

[JonathonofOhio]

The short answer is that Mary is redeemed before the foundation of the earth long prior to her immaculate conception, this is the only person who meritted this and was given clemency from all stain of original sin so as it was necessary for her to be the Holy Ark of the New Covenant and the Spouse of The Holy Spirit. Mary Immaculate is so absoloutely necessary and illustratrative really,of God’s own glory and greatness it just surpasses all words and understanding.
The Lord Jesus and His Mother Mary do not have a sinful nature as ALL the rest of us have and so it goes without saying by St.Paul in this passage that the Lord, whom he does not make mention of by name either is excluded of course, Mary is made Holy and she is like unto Jesus in Holiness so she is also understood naturally to be excluded from ALL “who have fallen short of the glory of God”.*
*(this is my recollection of the true scripture as reading: “the glory of” not the “grace of” God).

Yep, after all God did promise that He would put enmity between the devil and the woman (Genesis 3:15). If God created Eve without sin, then certainly He can create Mary without sin. Through one woman came sin and death followed, but through another woman came the Son of God into the world, and life followed. He existed before Adam, and through Him all things were made. Nothing is impossible with God.

 

[PJM]

=Rolla;8048354]Mary says, “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Saviour. Also too Paul tells us that ALL have fallen short of the grace of God. It looks to me that (of course) Scripture is consistent on this.

That is a GREAT question

Mary too was “Only human” fully able to choose sin. But she NEVER DID because of the GRACE that flooded her mind, heartand soul.

It is this issue of GRACE as a FREE GIFT from God that makes Mary’s claim valid and even necessary. It was MARY’S DECISIONS but GOD’S “DOING” THAT PERMITTED THIS SPECIAL TRATMENT WHICH GOD “HAD TO DO” [UPON DECIDING ON THE INCARNATION]. Because God is Perfect; Mary too HAD to be perfected. God could not and would not permit His Son to “issue forth” from a sinful person. AMEN!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Truthinthename]

In Revelation 5 it starts:

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

Now I suppose if Mary was sinless even if it was a gift from God therefore removing her original sin. At this point, wouldn’t they have said, “Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon…Oh wait! Sorry…we didn’t check the women Mary can do it yay!”

Proof that she was not without sin, and that she was not given a gift from God to remove her sin or else it would have applied here.

 

[brumano]

Yep, after all God did promise that He would put enmity between the devil and the woman (Genesis 3:15). If God created Eve without sin, then certainly He can create Mary without sin. Through one woman came sin and death followed, but through another woman came the Son of God into the world, and life followed. He existed before Adam, and through Him all things were made. Nothing is impossible with God.

Totally agree! I wonder quite a bit about something else though, I wonder if in the quote of Mary from Luke: “…I rejoice in God my Saviour” if Our Blessed Mother is not really speaking on behalf of her children which by context is; all of us rather than of herself personally or of her own soul…it 's kind of hard to put this to words but I think the whole context of the Magnificat in it’s entireity does not really leave my…feeling, i guess I would have to call it, without any support at all. I wonder what you think?

 

[adstrinity]

In Revelation 5 it starts:

“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

Now I suppose if Mary was sinless even if it was a gift from God therefore removing her original sin. At this point, wouldn’t they have said, “Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon…Oh wait! Sorry…we didn’t check the women Mary can do it yay!”

Proof that she was not without sin, and that she was not given a gift from God to remove her sin or else it would have applied here.

You assume Our Mother was in Heaven at this point. Revelation is not chronological. Mary is a creature, a sinless creature full of grace, but a creature nonetheless.

 

[Truthinthename]

I will say that Mary was a virtuous woman. She followed the law and loved God. We should look to her as a great servant of God, just like Moses, and Abraham, and Paul…ect. Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5 says “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” I don’t know how you justify that Mary is also a mediator but it’s pretty clear. Not good enough? ok try the words of Jesus himself, "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

 

[Truthinthename]

You assume Our Mother was in Heaven at this point. Revelation is not chronological. Mary is a creature, a sinless creature full of grace, but a creature nonetheless.

You keep saying she was sinless, I’ll believe you if you can show me one verse in scripture that say’s clearly she was born of an immaculate conception and had no sin for the rest of her life and never consumated her marriage and didn’t have kids…

 

[Rolla]

Everyone needs The Savior.

All doesn’t mean all, . I love when our separated brethren bring up this verse.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

What? I don’t understand that. First you say everyone needs the Savior which is so Biblically true that it should be blue and then you say all doesn’t mean all which is completely unfounded. I think there is some serious confusion within this whole theology of Mary being sinless. It’s like the ends have to be tweaked to justify the means. It doesn’t stack up with the whole context of Scripture.

 

[Rolla]

Mary could be sinless because Scripture also proclaims her as full of grace. Grace was bestowed on her by God saving her from the effects of Original Sin. Just look up what “Grace is” and the meaning of, it will give a better understanding of why Mary was sinless.
This is how I understand it.

How do you get from Mary being full of grace to her being conceived without the effects of original sin in Scripture?? It’s not there by any stretch. That’s the premise of what I am saying.

 

[davidmlamb]

Mary says, “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Saviour. Also too Paul tells us that ALL have fallen short of the grace of God. It looks to me that (of course) Scripture is consistent on this.

The point is not, “If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Savior.” The point is how can Mary already be saved if Christ had not yet gone to the cross to die for the sins of humanity? In fact, Christ had not yet even been conceived and Mary is already declaring herself “saved.” The answer to that question is the Immaculate Conception! By a sovereign act of God he prevented Mary from contracting the original stain of sin and filled her with grace the moment she was conceived. Hence, God saved Mary at conception and that is why she called God her savior. That is why Mary herself said the Mighty One had done great things for her and that from now on all generations would call her blessed.

Mary was not randomly chosen by God by some spiritual lottery from a pool of righteous Jewish women. Mary was created by God and endowed with extraordinary grace for the specific purpose to be the Mother of God incarnate. It takes an extraordinarily righteous woman free from sin by deliberate divine design to be the mother of God raising Him up from an infant and preparing him for his earthly ministry.

Saint Paul’s epistle to the Romans telling us all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God does not mean “all” in the literal sense. If that was true then “all” would include Jesus! Saint Paul also tells us that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. If “all” have sinned and the wages of sin is death, then how is it that Elijah and Enoch never died? By “all” Saint Paul is telling us what is generally true for the condition of humanity, but there are some exceptions. Jesus was an exception, Elijah was an exception, Enoch was an exception, and Mary was an exception. Mary’s salvation from God and her extraordinary grace which lead her to a perfect righteous life was a gift from God she received at conception.

Her pre-conceived son Jesus was the giver of that gift to his mother. Mary is very extraordinary, she is the only mother whose son is God, who created her and then became incarnate in her womb to be the Word of God made flesh. Elizabeth recognized this when Mary paid her a surprise visit, she exclaimed, “But why am I so favored, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?” The word “Lord” used in Luke 1:43 is translated from the Greek word “kurios” which means “the supreme God.”

Mary stuck with her son throughout his entire ministry and when he was arrested, tried, scourged at the pillar, carried his cross and was crucified Mary was there as near to him as possible. And while Mary and Saint John stood at the foot of the cross, one of the last things Jesus said before he died in agony was, *Dear woman behold your son *and then he looked at saint John and said, behold this is your Mother. This was a profound event because what Jesus was doing was giving his mother to the Church as a gift, Therefore, as Saint John was to take Mary into her home from the cross of Christ, we too from the cross of Christ are to take Mary into our homes and hearts. There is much more I have to say about this.

I will conclude by telling you that 13 years ago I was an Assembly of God evangelist for 12 years. During that time I taught Sunday school, street witnessed and lead many lost souls to Christ. But then by the work of the Holy Spirit I discovered that Christ gave us a Church and that being in communion with the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church we are united to Christ perfectly and our relationship with God enters a much more deeper and meaningful dimension. We receive the totality of the Word of God taught perfectly to us in truth without being tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

The bible teaches us that the Church rests on the pillars of Christ and the Bible rests on the pillars of the Church. The Church gave us the bible and Christ gave us the Church. Hence we read in Ephesians 3:10, “His intent was that now, THROUGH THE CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms…” We read Saint Paul’s Epistle to Timothy, “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, WHICH IS THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH.” The bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel!

To Him be glory IN THE CHURCH and in CHRIST JESUS throughout all generations, forever and ever! Amen.

Super Saved Catholic Dave

 

[Rolla]

Mary was a virgin and never joined with any man but she bore a child, Jesus the Christ our Lord and Savior.

This is surely not in Scripture and actually anterior to it. Scripture tells us in Luke that Joeseph didn’t have relations with Mary UNTIL the birth of Jesus. This actually suggests the contrary of what you are saying.

Mary being forever a virgin then possesses the highest of virtues, and not by her own doing but by the grace of God. Elijah possessed such a virtue, and God gave him great power even over kings, and he was taken up to heaven body and soul (2 Kings 2:11), and his spiritual son, Elisha was also a virgin and received from God such great power that even his bones could raise the dead (2 Kings 13:20-21). The three youths in Daniel who were also virgins (Daniel 3:20) were not burned up in the fire, and Daniel himself being a virgin was not able to be eaten by the wild beast.

But there is nothing that tells us that Mary was assumed into Heaven body and soul. We have to connect the invisible dots here to get that. Something of this magnitude would surely have been in Scripture.

So there should be no accusations towards Mary in our hearts. For if God, who is the author of life, did all these things, then surely he preserved Mary and she did not sin.

No proof…

And if we are to take the phrase ‘All’ have sinned as to imply that everyone has sinned, then logically we must say too that a baby has sinned or is capable of it. I’m certain you would not agree with that, so obviously there is something wrong with your interpretation of “All have sinned” as others have already pointed out.

This is distorted once again to justify an end. Did Jesus not mean ALL when he said to Baptize all nations??

As to Jesus being Mary’s savior, He is everyone’s savior including the prophets and every faithful person under the Law before His coming.

Again, a savior is needed to save us from sin. You did nothing to prove that Mary isn’t part of ALL. Again, The Facts are that Scripture is contrary to it.

 

[1ke]

This is surely not in Scripture

The false teaching of Sola Scriptura is a thread all its own.

 

[Rolla]

The false teaching of Sola Scriptura is a thread all its own.

You can’t just throw Sola Scriptura out there and prevail with it. That’s way outplayed.

 

[1ke]

You can’t just throw Sola Scriptura out there and prevail with it. That’s way outplayed.

You are asserting something must be in the Bible to be true, not me.

 

[PJM]

=Truthinthename;8052458]I will say that Mary was a virtuous woman. She followed the law and loved God. We should look to her as a great servant of God, just like Moses, and Abraham, and Paul…ect. Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5 says “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” I don’t know how you justify that Mary is also a mediator but it’s pretty clear. Not good enough? ok try the words of Jesus himself, "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

***Perhaps these insights will aid in your understanding?

Point 1.* Of the BILLIONS of human beings; past, present and future; ONLY One was chosen by God to be the MOTHER of His Son; that is the VERY Mother of God. READ Luke 1:26-35].

That makes Her different and Unique. And FRANKLY better then the rest of us.

Point 2: Because God was , Is, and remains ALWAYS Perfect; it was necessary that Mary too be PerfecTED in order to become the Mother of God.

Point 3. The Title of Metridix of Grace is bestowed upon Mary: THIS MEANS the One who distributes ALL Grace: NOT the Origin/ Source of Grace, and NOT even the one who determies who is ofered grace and it what amounts. BECAUSE Mary cooperated COMPLETELY with God in the Incarnation; God allows and commands Mary to ASSIST in our Spiritual birt /rebirth.

Point 4. While there are some who are pushing for Mary to be defined as the co-redemptrix of all GRACE; Pope JP II declined to do so. And I know of no pending plans to change the current position of the church. Advocates of such a proclaimation base there position of the DEGREE of Mary’s co-operation with Christ [making Him physically present which would not have happened w/o her COMPLETE YES, and never ever sinning and accepting everything God ever asked of her. Knowing that for this honor She had to be Perfected, makes her not just THEEE most unique, BUT als the ONLY Perfect human being ever.

I pray this adds to your understanding of the issue?

God Bless you,
Pat

---

 

[Nevermore22]

It is in Scripture!
See:
Catholic Bridge:

Catholics believe that when the Archangel Gabriel said “Hail Mary, full of grace” (Lk 1:28), he was saying a lot more than “Hey Mary, how ya doin’, you’re cool”. Catholics believe Gabriel was saying something about the nature of Mary, that Christians would recognize until the end of time. The Greek words Gabriel used were “Chaire, kecharitomene!”. [Caire, kecaritomene!]. So let’s check out the grammar of it. John Pacheco says the following:

"kecharitomene".. is a perfect passive participle. It means one endowed with favour or grace in a "permanent or perfect" fashion. According to Greek grammatical lexicons, the perfect stem of a Greek verb means the 'perpetuation of a permanent result or completed action'.

Catholics believe Gabriel chose his words carefully. His greeting to Mary was very different from his greeting to Zachariah whom he called by name. Catholics believe Mary was called by her title.

I mean, look at Martin Luther, 300 years before the Immaculate Conception was declared dogma!
Martin Luther:

. . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.

This didn’t come out of no where.
And for further reference, here is the docrtine on the Immaculate Conception:

We pronounce and define that the doctrine which states that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary was in the first instant of her conception, by the singular grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

In Christ through Mary,
Nevermore

(P.S. Here is the link to Catholic Bridge where I got my stuff)

 

[JonathonofOhio]

How do you get from Mary being full of grace to her being conceived without the effects of original sin in Scripture?? It’s not there by any stretch. That’s the premise of what I am saying.

Did you not read my posts? Or am I invisible on here?
Start with post #37 and go down. Also above poster pointed out another person already explaining it from scripture. If you aren’t going to bother reading the responses, then don’t bother to post.