How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

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Incorrect. Adam and Eve were both created without sin.
They later DID sin, but they did walk the earth while they were sinless.

Incorrect. Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6). The bible tells us about the Truth.
The Spirit of Christ, which is the Holy Spirit and is God, is not contained within a book. It is contained within the members of the Body of Christ, which is the The Church (1 Corinthians 6:15-20)
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

As you read this scripture Adam and Eve were created without the knowledge of good or bad, right or wrong. it is only after they ate the fruit that sin entered them. the were tested by Satan and fail short of the glory of God.

Jesus was born as the Son of God knowing right from wrong and he was still sinless even after Satan tested him.
 
JonathonofOhio:

Jhn 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Notice that every person from the beginning of time to the end of time is referred to in this scripture. Including Mary.
Again, fallacy of division: assuming that what is true of the whole is true of each constituent part. If “The world is a prisoner of sin” applies to Mary’s sinfulness, then ipso facto, the plants and animals and various non-living things are in the world, that also makes the plants and animals and every non-living object sinners as well…and saying so is just as absurd as drawing a conclusion that Mary is a sinner from this phrase.

Now go back and read all my previous posts and please explain to me how my interpretations are incorrect. Proposing new fallacious arguments without addressing the other previous arguments and demonstrating from scripture how they are wrong is a waste of my time.

Jhn 8:32 has nothing to do with proving your argument.
 
For Mary to be sinless she would have had to be more powerful than Satan or the demons.
She would had to be equal to God and that is blasphemy.
Were Adam and Eve equal to God while they were sinless?
If your concept of God is simply a lack of sin, you are lacking much.
 
Luk 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

Anxious = Uneasy and apprehensive about an uncertain event or matter; worried.

Luk 2:49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
Luk 2:50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

To Be sinless one would have to be holy, divine, perfect. Why would such a woman of holiness have to be worried. Even a prophetess would receive visions from God, so Mary should have known were he was and she would have understood his purpose.

Mat 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
 
What? I don’t understand that. First you say everyone needs the Savior which is so Biblically true that it should be blue and then you say all doesn’t mean all which is completely unfounded. I think there is some serious confusion within this whole theology of Mary being sinless. It’s like the ends have to be tweaked to justify the means. It doesn’t stack up with the whole context of Scripture.
Scripture is just a part of the context. It’s not the end-all, be-all to the faith.
 
Were Adam and Eve equal to God while they were sinless?
If your concept of God is simply a lack of sin, you are lacking much.
God is the creator of all. Can the creation be more than God-no

Are the Angels in having sinless- yes
are they equal to God- No

I rebuke the Lord of manipulation in the name of Jesus Christ
 
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

As you read this scripture Adam and Eve were created without the knowledge of good or bad, right or wrong. it is only after they ate the fruit that sin entered them. the were tested by Satan and fail short of the glory of God.

Jesus was born as the Son of God knowing right from wrong and he was still sinless even after Satan tested him.
God created all things good (1 Timothy 4:4). That they knew not good and evil means that they were created without sin- for how could they sin if they knew the difference between good and evil? They came to know through disobeying Gods command. That is the first sin, and the fall of man.

Jesus knows all things because He is God, and He was begotten not made, and was before all things, because through Him all things were made (including Adam and Eve)–You should know this if you know scripture.

So how this helps your argument make any more logical sense, is beyond me.

He created Mary ‘full of Grace’ (Luke 1:28) , and John professes that Jesus was also full of grace (John 1:14), and if under grace then sin has no dominion over them (Romans 6:14).

One thing I don’t understand is what difference this makes to you? What effect does it have on you if Mary is without sin?
 
God is the creator of all. Can the creation be more than God-no
But you just said that she would have to be equal to God to be sinless. Which is it? You have to be divine to be sinless or the creation is never equal to the Creator?

It’s not like we think Mary is sinless by any virtue of her own, or by any deed, or by any right. Mary was made sinless by the Grace of God!!! It is for His Glory that this was done, and God is the source, the reason for it.
 
Again, fallacy of division: assuming that what is true of the whole is true of each constituent part. If “The world is a prisoner of sin” applies to Mary’s sinfulness, then ipso facto, the plants and animals and various non-living things are in the world, that also makes the plants and animals and every non-living object sinners as well…and saying so is just as absurd as drawing a conclusion that Mary is a sinner from this phrase.

Now go back and read all my previous posts and please explain to me how my interpretations are incorrect. Proposing new fallacious arguments without addressing the other previous arguments and demonstrating from scripture how they are wrong is a waste of my time.

Jhn 8:32 has nothing to do with proving your argument.
your forgetting that all living things, man and animal have a spirit which is the breath of God but only man has a soul. Only man has a choice. Only man knows right from wrong and Finally Jesus died for man kind, not the earth, creatures or plants. God created humans to worship him. He created the earth and all the heavenly bodies and animals for humans to have dominion over.
 
God is the creator of all. Can the creation be more than God-no
I rebuke the Lord of manipulation in the name of Jesus Christ
Well lets all hope he hears your prayers and helps you find a way through that maze of circular logic the ‘lord of manipulation’ has trapped you in.
 
God created all things good (1 Timothy 4:4). That they knew not good and evil means that they were created without sin- for how could they sin if they knew the difference between good and evil? They came to know through disobeying Gods command. That is the first sin, and the fall of man.

Jesus knows all things because He is God, and He was begotten not made, and was before all things, because through Him all things were made (including Adam and Eve)–You should know this if you know scripture.

So how this helps your argument make any more logical sense, is beyond me.

He created Mary ‘full of Grace’ (Luke 1:28) , and John professes that Jesus was also full of grace (John 1:14), and if under grace then sin has no dominion over them (Romans 6:14).

One thing I don’t understand is what difference this makes to you? What effect does it have on you if Mary is without sin?
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

now where does it say she was created “Full of Grace”. Matter a fact it doesn’t say it any where in the Bible. It is not even written about Mary’s birth.
 
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

now where does it say she was created “Full of Grace”. Matter a fact it doesn’t say it any where in the Bible. It is not even written about Mary’s birth.
Hate to break it to you, but there is more than 1 english translation of the Bible, the DR translation has “full of grace”. Look at the greek.
 
You are asserting something must be in the Bible to be true, not me.
You are trying to put puzzle pieces where they don’t fit and then try to say that there is no puzzle at all. That philosophy doesn’t work…
 
Hate to break it to you, but there is more than 1 english translation of the Bible, the DR translation has “full of grace”. Look at the greek.
I have yet to see anything but a Catholic Bible say “full of grace”.
 
Did you not read my posts? Or am I invisible on here?
Start with post #37 and go down. Also above poster pointed out another person already explaining it from scripture. If you aren’t going to bother reading the responses, then don’t bother to post.
I don’t think you understand what I am asking. This has nothing to do with your large ego not bothering to listen to what others are saying. I am fully aware of what the posts said and my question is how can you get Mary being without sin for life from being full of grace? There are others in Scripture that were said to be full of grace but yet Catholicism doesn’t say that they were sin free. You are making jumps which aren’t based upon what the Scriptures say.
 
1Ti 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe

Who did he save? Sinners
notice it is written, “Savior of all men”
Was not written, “except for Mary”

God Bless Mary but the Lord of manipulation and deception is causing the World to not focus on the head of the body of Christ. Mary is a member of that body just as you and I.
Amen to that!
 
I have yet to see anything but a Catholic Bible say “full of grace”.
And those Catholic Bibles aren’t trustworthy now are they!!!

by the way, are you from Missouri, Rolla?
 
And those Catholic Bibles aren’t trustworthy now are they!!!

by the way, are you from Missouri, Rolla?
My point is that I have yet to see anything but a Catholic Bibile say, “full of grace”. My NIV doesn’t say that. My ESV doesn’t say it and my NRSV doesn’t say it either. I don’t have a King James right now but I did read out of a NKJV and I know it didn’t say it either.
 
your forgetting that all living things, man and animal have a spirit which is the breath of God but only man has a soul. Only man has a choice. Only man knows right from wrong and Finally Jesus died for man kind, not the earth, creatures or plants. God created humans to worship him. He created the earth and all the heavenly bodies and animals for humans to have dominion over.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not actually believe that plants and animals can sin, I was simply showing you the absurdness of your arguments. So I fail to see your point here. It is you that asserted I was incorrect when I said Adam and Eve was without sin and walked the earth by saying that they did not know right from wrong. Now you assert that man knows right from wrong. How any of this demonstrates that anything I said was incorrect, I do not know.

Now let me demonstrate for you how you are incorrect in saying ‘only humans worship God.’, and not by my own opinions but what is plainly stated in the bible:

Truth: All creation worships God.

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” - Revelation 5:13.

Also read Psalm 148. And this is another thing even something non-Catholics believe, and it is even professed in song (‘God Is Great’ -By Hillsong).

I have demonstrated plainly that your interpretations are false on more than one occasion, and yet you continue to profess to me, and to yourself, that you know a truth that I do not. What sense is there in continuing this dialog?
 
I have yet to see anything but a Catholic Bible say “full of grace”.
My point is that I have yet to see anything but a Catholic Bibile say, “full of grace”. My NIV doesn’t say that. My ESV doesn’t say it and my NRSV doesn’t say it either. I don’t have a King James right now but I did read out of a NKJV and I know it didn’t say it either.
Well, the short answer is the Catholic Church compiled and handwrote the first Bible.

Any Bible differing from the first one has been edited by man. This is what happens when the Bible gets interpreted in a vacuum, we need to be aware of the language of the day and the social norms of the day.

The Koine Greek used at the time is different from modern Greek. It is a much more precise language than English.

The words used of Jesus in John 1 are Pleres Charis. Pleres means “full” or “lacking nothing” (and is applied also to “truth”). Charis simply means “Grace”.

The word used of Mary in Luke 1 is Kecharitomene. It is a complex participle. The root of this word is Charis, meaning Grace. The prefix ‘Ke’ means that the grace was already perfectly present before the angel appeared. The suffix ‘mene’ means that Mary was the recipient of this grace.

In other words Kecharitomene shows that Mary was a recipient of a fullness of Grace. The grace was given to her. The perfect tense indicates that this filling with grace is a continuous event that was ongoing before the angel appeared.


The translations which state “highly favoured” instead of “full of grace”, are largely motivated by a doctrinal desire to downgrade Mary. The first version to use this translation was the King James Version, where the translators noted that “highly favoured” was used instead of “full of Grace” in order to show that Mary was not a source of grace. (Tyndale’s version on which the KJV was largely based, used full of Grace).

Most protestant bibles followed the KJV, (along with some modern Catholic ones!)

Now, in modern Greek, which Protestants used to interpret these verses, Charis can be translated simply as “favour”. So “Highly-favoured” could be a conceivable translation - but this would only be acceptable if the word “favour” were used as a translation for “Charis” everywhere else in the New Testament.

But THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. Even those bibles which translate “Charis” as Favour" when referring to Mary, translate it as “Grace” everywhere else. This is highly misleading because in the New Testament the word “Grace” has a particular meaning distinct from “Favour”.

In the New Testament “Grace” is a gift of God that saves from sin and its effects. So translating the word any differently is wrong. The correct translation is rightfully “Full of Grace”.
 
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