How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

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Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Whose flesh did Jesus come in the “likeness of”?
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother Cavaradossi,

The highlighted portion above sounds strangely Nestorian to my ears. Granted, I am a miaphysite, not a diophysite. How can God be the savior of Christ’s human nature if Christ was Himself God?

Apart from that, you have given the best explanation here. “One cannot be sinless without the Grace of God.”

Blessings,
Marduk
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Yes.

Christ did not have a “fallen human nature”. His human nature, taken from his spotless mother, was withut sin, just as Adam and Eve were created without sin. He had the limitations of human nature (became hungry, tired, etc) but these qualities are not “fallen”. Instead, they represent the limitations of human nature. These qualities are created in us.

Jesus did perfect human nature, and took it into heaven when he ascended, showing that all of human nature, body and soul are to be perfected and fit for heaven.
 
Rolla said:
Mary says, “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Saviour. Also too Paul tells us that ALL have fallen short of the grace of God. It looks to me that (of course) Scripture is consistent on this.
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JL: If infants are without sin, do they not need a Saviour?
 
Richard_Kastner said:
Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Whose flesh did Jesus come in the “likeness of”?
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the appearance of men in general, who are sinful. Jesus did not inherit sinful human nature because Mary did not have sinful human nature.
 
ESMDHokie77 said:
the appearance of men in general, who are sinful. Jesus did not inherit sinful human nature because Mary did not have sinful human nature.
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The one Jesus came in the likeness of was His mother, therefore His mother, Mary, was a sinner.
 
ESMDHokie77 said:
Defending the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus. 😉
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Could you explain a little more? I don’t get what you are saying:

“was Jesus a sinner too? was Jesus a woman too? Did Mary have a beard too?”
 
Richard thinks Mary was a sinner. He thinks he knows better than Luther, Calvin, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Augustine, and countless others.

It’s true that Jesus got His Body from Mary. There are some obvious differences, physically, between Mary and Jesus, gender and facial hair foremost in appearance. What’s not true is that Jesus got His gender from Mary.

Jesus is wholly human, because He was born of a wholly human woman.

It was fitting that Jesus saved Mary from original sin and its stain at her conception. Mary didn’t have to be sinless but God made her so. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, and just as the Old Ark was kept pure and clean, so was Mary.
 
Rolla said:
Mary says, “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Saviour. Also too Paul tells us that ALL have fallen short of the grace of God. It looks to me that (of course) Scripture is consistent on this.
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Mary could be sinless because Scripture also proclaims her as full of grace. Grace was bestowed on her by God saving her from the effects of Original Sin. Just look up what “Grace is” and the meaning of, it will give a better understanding of why Mary was sinless.
This is how I understand it.
 
The sinless nature of Mary is evident in the Bible by her being called a virgin.

When man and woman were created, they were created to be virgins and without sin. But God in His wisdom, perceiving the fall of man, created man and woman that they might ‘go forth and multiply’. God can create many men and women without the assistance of mankind, but He made it so that a man and woman join and become one flesh.

Mary was a virgin and never joined with any man but she bore a child, Jesus the Christ our Lord and Savior. And Jesus speaks of the merits of virginity and celibacy in Matthew 19. He did not impose on us any law, because he says “all men cannot receive this saying”, but he mentions that those who are celibate do it for the Kingdom of Heaven.

Virginity is the way of the angels, and in the life to come we will be as the angels who do not marry (Matthew 22:30). But is that saying marriage is a bad thing? No, because the Lord blessed marriage with his presence at the wedding, and marriage is an honorable virtue (Hebrews 13:4), but virginity is the better virtue.

Mary being forever a virgin then possesses the highest of virtues, and not by her own doing but by the grace of God. Elijah possessed such a virtue, and God gave him great power even over kings, and he was taken up to heaven body and soul (2 Kings 2:11), and his spiritual son, Elisha was also a virgin and received from God such great power that even his bones could raise the dead (2 Kings 13:20-21). The three youths in Daniel who were also virgins (Daniel 3:20) were not burned up in the fire, and Daniel himself being a virgin was not able to be eaten by the wild beast.

And then there is of course Jesus The Christ, who is greater than all the angels, being made in the image of man, born of a virgin, who is the glory of virginity, and is the true and perfect virgin.

So there should be no accusations towards Mary in our hearts. For if God, who is the author of life, did all these things, then surely he preserved Mary and she did not sin.

And if we are to take the phrase ‘All’ have sinned as to imply that everyone has sinned, then logically we must say too that a baby has sinned or is capable of it. I’m certain you would not agree with that, so obviously there is something wrong with your interpretation of “All have sinned” as others have already pointed out.

As to Jesus being Mary’s savior, He is everyone’s savior including the prophets and every faithful person under the Law before His coming.
 
Richard_Kastner said:
The one Jesus came in the likeness of was His mother, therefore His mother, Mary, was a sinner.
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Let me see here: A woman with sin conceived God’s only Son who had no sin? Wow! Sin (Mary) carried no sin (Jesus) for 9 months in her womb?
 
ESMDHokie77 said:
Richard thinks Mary was a sinner. He thinks he knows better than Luther, Calvin, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Augustine, and countless others.

It’s true that Jesus got His Body from Mary. There are some obvious differences, physically, between Mary and Jesus, gender and facial hair foremost in appearance. What’s not true is that Jesus got His gender from Mary.

Jesus is wholly human, because He was born of a wholly human woman.

It was fitting that Jesus saved Mary from original sin and its stain at her conception. Mary didn’t have to be sinless but God made her so. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, and just as the Old Ark was kept pure and clean, so was Mary.
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Not what I think The bible says it.

Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 
Our Mother Mary was given to us as Our Savior hung willingly in sufferingt on the Cross. Mary’s purity of sin was from the Spirti the moment she was conceived. It was ultimately by her choice not to fall into sin, unknowing of the Spirit’s gift of preparing for her to say “YES” to conceive upon the Father’s Will in the state of grace. Mother Mary cound not sin as you and me, as it was predestined that she would remain pure for the Spirit’s intervention for “God Made Man” in every sense BUT SIN !

We must maintain our devotion to Mary as she intercedes for our needs…not our wants! She is our earnest and willing portal to the Sacred Heart of Jesus! It is what Our Savior wanted to show humankind that we are all as Catholics connected to His Body and Blood in the Eucharist and in awaiting His second comming! Come, Lord Jesus, Come!
 
Richard_Kastner said:
Not what I think The bible says it.

Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
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And those names mentioned apparently did not know the Bible until you appeared-right?
 
Richard_Kastner said:
Not what I think The bible says it.

Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
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God came in the likeness of sinful flesh, that is to say he took the form of a man, the form of one who fell from grace. Jesus, being a man, did not fall from grace, because He is God.

This is a non sequitur, because it does not follow logically that because God took the form of a man (the appearance of sinful flesh), Mary must be a sinner and was not in a state of grace.

This conclusion of yours is drawn in light of the fact that the Angel Gabriel plainly states “Hail, full of Grace”, indicating she was in a state of Grace; which is to say she is without sin, because no one can have sin and be full of grace.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:14[/BIBLEDRB]
 
JonathonofOhio said:
God came in the likeness of sinful flesh, that is to say he took the form of a man, the form of one who fell from grace. Jesus, being a man, did not fall from grace, because He is God.

This is a non sequitur, because it does not follow logically that because God took the form of a man (the appearance of sinful flesh), Mary must be a sinner and was not in a state of grace.

This conclusion of yours is drawn in light of the fact that the Angel Gabriel plainly states “Hail, full of Grace”, indicating she was in a state of Grace; which is to say she is without sin, because no one can have sin and be full of grace.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:14[/BIBLEDRB]
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The ONLY flesh from which Jesus accomplished His earthly incarnation was the flesh of Mary. Therefore Mary was the sinful flesh referred to in Romans 8:3. The fact that Gabriel said that Mary was “full of grace” simply refered to the fact that she accepted God’s plan for her salvation, clearly illustrated in the sacraficial system of the sanctuary.
 
Richard_Kastner said:
The fact that Gabriel said that Mary was “full of grace” simply refered to the fact that she accepted God’s plan for her salvation, clearly illustrated in the sacraficial system of the sanctuary.
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So are you saying that Mary had already accepted what Gabriel was going to tell her before he told her? Because she was called “full of grace” at the start of the dialogue…
 
Richard_Kastner said:
The ONLY flesh from which Jesus accomplished His earthly incarnation was the flesh of Mary. Therefore Mary was the sinful flesh referred to in Romans 8:3. The fact that Gabriel said that Mary was “full of grace” simply refered to the fact that she accepted God’s plan for her salvation, clearly illustrated in the sacraficial system of the sanctuary.
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How interesting,but to bad it is not correct.
 
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