How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[ComeHome2Rome]

My point is that I have yet to see anything but a Catholic Bibile say, “full of grace”. My NIV doesn’t say that. My ESV doesn’t say it and my NRSV doesn’t say it either. I don’t have a King James right now but I did read out of a NKJV and I know it didn’t say it either.

The Bible wasn’t originally written in English, it was written in Greek. It was originally written by Catholics in the 1st centuries after Jesus established the Catholic Church & ascended into Heaven. If trust the Bible at all, you are actually trusting the Catholic Church who compiled & preserved & tirelessly translated the Bible for over a thousand years before the printing press was invented & it could finally be widely printed and affordable. If you want to know the real meaning of this authentically Catholic book, turn to the Catholic Church to explain it’s contents.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Well, the short answer is the Catholic Church compiled and handwrote the first Bible.

Any Bible differing from the first one has been edited by man. This is what happens when the Bible gets interpreted in a vacuum, we need to be aware of the language of the day and the social norms of the day.

The Koine Greek used at the time is different from modern Greek. It is a much more precise language than English.

… (see the original post for more).

Thanks for posting this clarification. I had read the opposite argument which completely disregarded the meaning and root of the Greek words. Basically they ignored the facts and stated biased opinions, and then said the mistranslations of ‘favored daughter’ were correct and Catholics were wrong for many years-- apparently the Latin Vulgate was wrong too, which was translated from the Greek so long ago when people were more familiar with the language. In John it is rendered ‘plenum gratiæ’ and in Luke it is rendered as “gratia plena” - both translate to “full of grace” in English.

What you posted is helpful, because I wondering about this myself, and did some quick research and found credible sources that would agree with you.

The bibles that have removed ‘full of grace’ are incorrectly translated. And Rolla, just an FYI, not all the bibles in print are directly translated from the original Greek manuscripts. What most of them do is take other bibles and ‘tweak’ the language so that it is supposedly easier to read. In fact, often times they ‘tweak’ their own beliefs into the bible so people like you don’t start asking questions.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Dear brother Cavaradossi,

The highlighted portion above sounds strangely Nestorian to my ears. Granted, I am a miaphysite, not a diophysite. How can God be the savior of Christ’s human nature if Christ was Himself God?

Apart from that, you have given the best explanation here. “One cannot be sinless without the Grace of God.”

Blessings,
Marduk

I apologize for the late reply to this, since it’s a good question, and I’m glad that you asked it.

I think I phrased that rather carelessly. For those who subscribe to the Chalcedonian definition and the later Sixth Ecumenical Council, Christ is recognized as being in two natures (fully human and fully divine) inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly and inseparably, and in two wills (one human and one divine); those two natures are united into one hypostasis. Christ was completely human, and that fact is manifest in that he was subject to temptation and even death. From the submission of his human will to his divine will, we get the title of “second Adam” for Christ, as he redeemed mankind through fulfilling the purpose which Adam failed to fulfill. That Christ was born into the fallen world is undeniable (for the Western Christians, keep in mind that the Eastern perception of original sin and the fall is somewhat different in that it carries no implication of stain); however, through his victory on the cross, Christ, in dying and then rising from the dead, conquered death in the world and has shown us the Truth of God’s purpose for mankind.

None of this would be possible, in the Eastern Orthodox view had the incarnation not involved God becoming fully human. God became man so that men might become gods, as St. Athanasius said. If we fail to recognize the full humanity of Christ, the incarnation becomes meaningless, for only in becoming fully human, has God provided for humanity the tools for our own salvation and eternal life. Perhaps I misstated what I meant by saying that Christ’s humanity was “saved” by his divinity. It’s better to say that the union of Christ’s humanity with his divinity provided for the redemption of mankind in general and is the model by which all humans might obtain salvation via theosis (in other words, it’s not that Christ’s humanity and divinity act as two separate persons in the saving process, which would be highly Nestorian; it’s more that salvation is a direct consequence of the union between humanity and divinity, which is exemplified in Christ).

I also humbly thank you for your kind words about the bolded statement. I’m not so sure if I’m deserving of receiving such praise.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Well, the short answer is the Catholic Church compiled and handwrote the first Bible.

Any Bible differing from the first one has been edited by man. This is what happens when the Bible gets interpreted in a vacuum, we need to be aware of the language of the day and the social norms of the day.

How does a church compile and write anything? The truth is, the compiling and writing was done by men.

In the New Testament “Grace” is a gift of God that saves from sin and its effects. So translating the word any differently is wrong. The correct translation is rightfully “Full of Grace”.

This is a wonderful definition of grace. I would add that that gift is the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. So when the angel says “hail full of grace” he is acknowledging the fact that May has accepted the gift of salvation that Jesus would provide for her, which is forgiveness for her sins and the promise of eternal life that goes along with that acceptance.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary was conceived, though, without sin…thus ‘full of grace’.

I wonder how any body made it without the King James Version that came out…over a thousand years after the resurrection of Christ…

 

[JonathonofOhio]

How does a church compile and write anything? The truth is, the compiling and writing was done by men.

…compiled and written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Church is the body of believers, and they make up the Body of Christ

Colossians 1:18, Romans 12:5 just to name a few— even Protestants and most Fundamentalists agree that the Church isn’t just the building that people gather in, but the body of believers…

So since it wasn’t just one man that wrote it, but multiple members of the Church wrote it, inspired by the Holy Spirit, it is correct to say that the Church compiled and wrote the gospels, because it was the Church as a whole that agreed on what was inspired scripture and what was not.

No one outside of the Church was inspired to write what is in the Bible.

This is a wonderful definition of grace. I would add that that gift is the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. So when the angel says “hail full of grace” he is acknowledging the fact that May has accepted the gift of salvation that Jesus would provide for her, which is forgiveness for her sins and the promise of eternal life that goes along with that acceptance.

If we are to apply this reasoning to this passage, then logically we must apply the same reasoning when reading John 1 in which it is written that Jesus is also full of grace. Doing so also makes Romans 6:14 a false statement, in which we are told plainly that sin cannot have dominion over someone under grace. However, you insist sin had dominion over Mary despite the fact she was ‘full of grace’, and this is a blatant contradiction.

Also, as the OP pointed out Mary declared that God has her savior, she didn’t say God was her future savior.

You are clearly prooftexting the Bible in order to make it fit what you want to believe.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Kathleen, I just don’t know.

How does a church compile and write anything? The truth is, the compiling and writing was done by men.

The Church authoritatively decided which books were canonical!

… So when the angel says “hail full of grace” he is acknowledging the fact that May has accepted the gift of salvation that Jesus would provide for her, which is forgiveness for her sins and the promise of eternal life that goes along with that acceptance.

I think this reeks of dismissing Mary’s free will.

 

[guanophore]

The one Jesus came in the likeness of was His mother, therefore His mother, Mary, was a sinner.

Such a position is both scripturally unsupportable, and cannot be found in any of the Teachings or faith of the early Church. It is a modern innovation that comes from Sola Scriptura, that was not even espoused by the Reformers.

It is proof that the longer one is separated from the Apostolic fatih, the more one drifts into errors.

 

[guanophore]

Not what I think The bible says it.

Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

You have misunderstood the Holy Scripture, Richard. Jesus took His flesh from Mary,and it was sinless.

That is why it is called “likeness of sinful flesh”. It was the same flesh in which He created Adam and Eve. It is just like the sinful flesh that suffers the sin nature, but it does not have the sin nature.

Sin is not part of human nature. We were not created with sin, or to sin.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Mary says, “I rejoice in God my Saviour”. If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Saviour. Also too Paul tells us that ALL have fallen short of the grace of God. It looks to me that (of course) Scripture is consistent on this.

Mary would not have entered heaven had Christ not died for the sins of all. She would have went to Abraham’s Bosom like the rest of the righteous before Christ.

 

[guanophore]

I too want to know where “full of Grace” means ‘accepting God’s plan of salvation’ is taught explicitly in the bible?

Don’t hold your breath on that one!

I think it is in Chapter one of the book of Richard Kastner v. 13 or something.

 

[mardela]

Hate to break it to you, but there is more than 1 english translation of the Bible, the DR translation has “full of grace”. Look at the greek.

Why don’t you post this scripture i bet it doesn’t say Mary was created full of Grace.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

why don’t you post this scripture i bet it doesn’t say mary was created full of grace.

Luke 1:28 from greekbible.com/index.php
καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν, Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.

χαριτόω,v {khar-ee-to’-o}

1. to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

It’s in the Perfect passive participle. Something that occurred in the past that has an effect on the present.

 

[adstrinity]

Remember one thing as I post these scriptures. I love and thank God for all the Saints and i love and appreciate what Mary roll she played in God good plan. I just want to point out that she should not be loved more than Jesus Christ, the Messiah the Door to Eternal Life. She is defiantly not equal to the Son of God.

For Mary to be sinless she would have had to be more powerful than Satan or the demons.
She would had to be equal to God and that is blasphemy.

Even the most righteous men and women in the Bible were never referred to as sinless.

YES!!! It is correct to say that Mary IS more powerful than Satan and the demons!!! YES YES YES!!! This is true!!! That’s why the devil and all his followers hate Her so much! The devil hates God, but, he hates Mary more because She is less than the devil – she is human. She concquered through Her humility. She IS more powerful than the devil and that is why when temptation occurs, call for Mommy!

Mary is less than God, but, she IS greater than the devil, and always has been.

She is a creature of God’s but, She is His Mother. She is in a way greater than Jesus because Jesus had to obey Her, but, she is infinately less than Jesus, and She knows this.

We can not contemplate the beauty of Her or Her relationship with God enough. She is God’s most perfect creature.

 

[mardela]

My point is that I have yet to see anything but a Catholic Bibile say, “full of grace”. My NIV doesn’t say that. My ESV doesn’t say it and my NRSV doesn’t say it either. I don’t have a King James right now but I did read out of a NKJV and I know it didn’t say it either.

here is a great site that will give access to all of the recognized versions of the bible and the DR is not included. blueletterbible.org/index.cfm

i did get in Latin and translate i used google so i don’t know how good it is. here is the scripture:
Luk 1:28 et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus
Luk 1:28 And the angel came to her and said, Hail full of grace Lord is with thee Blessed art thou among women
And you pointed out anybody could be full of the grace of God. if we weren’t then how could we ever receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The main thing in this scripture or in the Bible and even bet in the DR it doesn’t say that Mary was created/born Full of Grace. Jesus - Yes

 

[PJM]

=Rolla;8052841]This is surely not in Scripture and actually anterior to it. Scripture tells us in Luke that Joeseph didn’t have relations with Mary UNTIL the birth of Jesus. This actually suggests the contrary of what you are saying.

WHAT the meaning ACTUALLY IS; refers to the FACT that Joseph is NOT the father of Jesus. HAS NO meaning beyond this!

**2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 ** “For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

But there is nothing that tells us that Mary was assumed into Heaven body and soul. We have to connect the invisible dots here to get that. Something of this magnitude would surely have been in Scripture.

1. The Bible both applying comon sense and FACT tells us in John Chapters 20 and 21 that NOT EVERYTHING is in the Bible.
2. The location of Christ Birth, the Upper Room, The place of His Death and burial, and the tombs of ALL of th Apostles [except Judas the Traitor] are known. The House where MARY lived with the Apostle is also maked and KNOWN. WHY then no loaction for MARY? BEACUSE SHE WAS ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN BODY AND SOULD; BECAUSE IT WAS KNOWN AND ACCEPTED FACT. WHY:shrug: because of historical
   Precedence!

ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN

Gen. 5: 22-24 Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methu’selah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. [ASSUMED Body and Soul into Heaven].

** 2nd. Kings 2: 8-14** Then “Eli’jah took his mantle, and rolled it up, and struck the water, and the water was parted to the one side and to the other, till the two of them could go over on dry ground. When they had crossed, Eli’jah said to Eli’sha, “Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you.” And Eli’sha said, “I pray you, let me inherit a double share of your spirit.” And he said, “You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if you do not see me, it shall not be so.” And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli’jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Eli’sha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw him no more."

Again, a savior is needed to save us from sin. You did nothing to prove that Mary isn’t part of ALL. Again, The Facts are that Scripture is contrary to it.

So friend: Being born W/O sin and receving special graces to enable Mary NEVER to sin is cause by whom if not God:shrug: And THIS IS MARY’S Salvation THROUGH GOD!

***Friends the reason Mary was Both conceived without Sin and freely choose NEVER to sin is a miracle of God caused by an absolute need:

God Is Perfect and MUST BE Perfect inorder to be God.

Mary is the Mother of GOD! And therefore She HAD to be Perfect so that Christ our Redeemer too would be Perfect.

LUKE 1: 34-35 "[34] And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?”
[35] And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy,
the Son of God.***

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[mardela]

YES!!! It is correct to say that Mary IS more powerful than Satan and the demons!!! YES YES YES!!! This is true!!! That’s why the devil and all his followers hate Her so much! The devil hates God, but, he hates Mary more because She is less than the devil – she is human. She concquered through Her humility. She IS more powerful than the devil and that is why when temptation occurs, call for Mommy!

Mary is less than God, but, she IS greater than the devil, and always has been.

She is a creature of God’s but, She is His Mother. She is in a way greater than Jesus because Jesus had to obey Her, but, she is infinately less than Jesus, and She knows this.

We can not contemplate the beauty of Her or Her relationship with God enough. She is God’s most perfect creature.

i know my brain can make mistakes and I can say things that don’t quite make since but the truth lies in the teachings of Jesus Christ. All the saints taught based off the teachings of Jesus Christ. Just pick up the Bible and read it.
Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
In this scripture what does it mean in our image. He was referring to Jesus. Not Mary, Mary was a decedent of Adam of Eve.
He wasn’t talking about “Our” as him or Mary.
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
this is when women were created.

Look at this scripture about wives. Mary was and she continued to be a wife after the birth of Jesus Christ.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Mary was just an ordinary women that God Blessed, but that’s all ordinary like me and you. I thank God every day for my blessings and the Grace that he has given me.

 

[PJM]

Kathleen, I just don’t know.

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
How does a church compile and write anything? The truth is, the compiling and writing was done by men.

REPLY
The Church authoritatively decided which books were canonical!

YES BUT NOT WITHOUT GOD"S INTERVENTION.
2Tim.3: 16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” ALSO SEE Jn. 14:16-17 and Jn. 17:15-19.

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
… So when the angel says “hail full of grace” he is acknowledging the fact that May has accepted the gift of salvation that Jesus would provide for her, which is forgiveness for her sins and the promise of eternal life that goes along with that acceptance.

***NO! Not quite MAry’s salvation came through God is a UNIQUE maner SUITABLE to being the son to be “Mother of God.” Conceived W’? any sin and NEVER sinned because of ardent LOVE of God and specisal graces. ***

I think this reeks of dismissing Mary’s free will.

NOPE It is an impossibility for God who is Perfect to make a mistake. EVERY Human being has [spiritual things]: a mind, Intellect and FREEWILL ATTACHED to our souls. GOD cannot overide this fact and still be a perfrect God. It IS Mary’s freewill disposition NOT to ever sin COMBINED with special GRACES from God COMBINED with the miracale of birth W/O sin; WHICH A ALMINGHTY; ALL POWWERFUL GOD CAN DO BECAUSE IT IS A GOOD THING, Done by a GOOD God for a JUST reason.thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

 

[JonathonofOhio]

You have misunderstood the Holy Scripture, Richard. Jesus took His flesh from Mary,and it was sinless.

That is why it is called “likeness of sinful flesh”. It was the same flesh in which He created Adam and Eve. It is just like the sinful flesh that suffers the sin nature, but it does not have the sin nature.

Sin is not part of human nature. We were not created with sin, or to sin.

Good point, but wouldn’t it be more correct to say that Jesus came BEFORE Mary as did he before all creation? I don’t think that Jesus took flesh from Mary, but that Mary was created through Jesus, the Word of God, making her come from Jesus similar to how Eve came from Adam. If we say he took flesh from Mary, then we are saying she was first and he was made from her, but the bible teaches us that Jesus was first born of all creation, begotten not made, that he was there in the beginning, and through him all things were made.

 

[Cavaradossi]

i know my brain can make mistakes and I can say things that don’t quite make since but the truth lies in the teachings of Jesus Christ. All the saints taught based off the teachings of Jesus Christ. Just pick up the Bible and read it.
Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
In this scripture what does it mean in our image. He was referring to Jesus. Not Mary, Mary was a decedent of Adam of Eve.
He wasn’t talking about “Our” as him or Mary.

Incorrect. That passage has to do with how man is endowed with free-will and intellect (the likeness) and the ability, with the acceptance of God’s grace, to be an ikon of God (the image). I’ve never heard it in any context about Mary or Jesus. God speaking in the plural (We and Us) is likely a manifestation of a linguistic phenomenon similar to the “royal we” (of course, we as Christians also see it as a hint of the existence of the Trinity).

Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
this is when women were created.

Look at this scripture about wives. Mary was and she continued to be a wife after the birth of Jesus Christ.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Mary was just an ordinary women that God Blessed, but that’s all ordinary like me and you. I thank God every day for my blessings and the Grace that he has given me.

Ok, so she continued to be a wife (are we to assume that the sinless mother of Christ instead divorced her husband? ). How does that disprove that Mary was special among women, that she was without sin or that she was a perpetual virgin? I ask because these things have been teachings of both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches stemming back to the beginnings of Christianity. What you are trying to propose is an innovation which has perhaps only 400 years of history behind it.