How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

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Carthage, Hippo ??? It’s a matter of history.
That’s not enough. I want names, quotes, dates of why the Councils are for the Orthodox Church and why the Catholic Church didn’t compile the Bible.
I don’t want the name of two Councils.
 
Mary is the Mother of Jesus, who is God and Man. She is NOT the Mother of Jesus the man, but BOTH man AND God.
She is the Theotokos, the God-Bearer, the Mother of God.
This is a title given to Mary at the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. This wasn’t on a whim, but came about to fight the heresy of Nestorious. This belief separated Christ into two natures. You stating that Mary is the mother of Jesus the man comes very close to this heresy.
Almost, but you are somewhat mistaken with your terminology here. The Nestorian heresy divides Christ into two persons (hypostaseis in Greek). We actually be believe, as Catholics and Orthodox that Christ is in two natures (physeis in Greek) united into one hypostasis, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, and inseparably as is defined in the Chalcedonian definition.
Mary gave birth to a person (Jesus) not a nature (human). Christ cannot be separated into human and divine components. Both are united and inseparable - the hysoptic (sp?) union.
That is correct. Mary could not have just birthed the human nature. She birthed both because they are united into one hypostasis (person).

That would be hypostatic union, by the way 🙂
Calling Mary the Mother of God is simply stating that Mary held Jesus in her womb for 9 months, gave birth to him, raised him, loved him etc. She was the mother of the Son of God. She did not exist before God, but she did all of those things that a mother does.
Spot on.
 
the word tradition says alot.

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing?
Gal 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
Col 2:19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
Col 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
Col 2:21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
Col 2:22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
Please don’t spit Scripture out at me. Most of those verses have nothing to do with what I was talking about. Most of those are taken out of context any ways!
If you want me to continue talking about this issue with you, don’t spit our verses. Talk to me with your own words.

Thank you.
 
But where do you get that from?? That’s the crux of this.
I get it from my own common sense.
Nobody could make Mary sinless except God so OBVIOUSLY, He was the source.
Since he was the source of Mary being sinless Mary OBVIOUSLY has good reason for calling God her savior.
Sorry for using common sense…😃
 
Almost, but you are somewhat mistaken with your terminology here. The Nestorian heresy divides Christ into two persons (hypostaseis in Greek). We actually be believe, as Catholics and Orthodox that Christ is in two natures (physeis in Greek) united into one hypostasis, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, and inseparably as is defined in the Chalcedonian definition.
Yeah, I am not as well versed as I liked to be. But thanks for the corrections. My knowledge on Orthodox beliefs are sub-par at best.
That is correct. Mary could not have just birthed the human nature. She birthed both because they are united into one hypostasis (person).
That would be hypostatic union, by the way 🙂
Spot on.
Thanks for the support! And the correction on the Hypostatic union. I knew I was close!
 
But where do you get that from?? That’s the crux of this.
You asked how Mary could be sinless when she calls God her savior, NOT why do we think Mary is sinless. That question was answered - She did need a saviour and God her Savior redeemed her before she was born so that she could be a pure vessel for Him incarnate. We get that Mary is sinless from the Church’s Tradition & Scripture, for whom the Church is the infallible interpreter. God entrusted Peter (and through succession, all of the Popes and Bishops) with guiding His Church. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it, so we trust His promise. So not everything we believe has to come from the Bible. The Bible (New testament) came from the Church, not the Church from the Bible.

If everything you believe must be in the Bible, where in the Bible does it tell you which books belong in the Bible? You are obviously relying on another authority for some things…
 
Please don’t spit Scripture out at me. Most of those verses have nothing to do with what I was talking about. Most of those are taken out of context any ways!
If you want me to continue talking about this issue with you, don’t spit our verses. Talk to me with your own words.

Thank you.
i forgot a couple

Col 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Ecc 7:4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning, but the heart of fools is in the house of pleasure.
Ecc 7:5 It is better to heed a wise man’s rebuke than to listen to the song of fools.

Pro 15:32 He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
 
i forgot a couple

Col 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col 2:4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.

Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Ecc 7:4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning, but the heart of fools is in the house of pleasure.
Ecc 7:5 It is better to heed a wise man’s rebuke than to listen to the song of fools.

Pro 15:32 He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
Your understanding of Catholic Tradition is wrong here is is from the CCC:
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CCC:
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
  • orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
  • in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34
77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. the first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.
Please read that.
 
I get it from my own common sense.
Nobody could make Mary sinless except God so OBVIOUSLY, He was the source.
Since he was the source of Mary being sinless Mary OBVIOUSLY has good reason for calling God her savior.
Sorry for using common sense…😃
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Jhn 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Pro 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
 
Yeah, I am not as well versed as I liked to be. But thanks for the corrections. My knowledge on Orthodox beliefs are sub-par at best.

Thanks for the support! And the correction on the Hypostatic union. I knew I was close!
We are all learning here. If you look on page two of this thread, I believe Marduk pointed out that I had carelessly said something that verged on being heretical.
 
Not what I think The bible says it.

Romans8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That is the problem when personal interpretations are applied

Romans 8:3 in proper context: LINK

Ver. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in sinful flesh, (because the Son of God could not sin) hath now done; even of sin hath condemned sin in the flesh. That is, in or by his flesh, which was offered on the cross, hath condemned the tyrant sin, as guilty of so many sins, and hath destroyed his tyranny, where the apostle speaks of sin, as it were of a certain person or tyrant. (Witham)
 
it wasn’t through a woman that salvation came. It was Jesus Christ that salvation came.
It is important for you to read the Bible. Specifically the New testament, it never mentions a woman and salvation in the same scripture any where in the Bible. Stop reading other religious materiel, read just the Holy Bible.
Fact: Jesus is our savior, and because of him we can be saved. He is our salvation.
Fact: Eve brought sin and death into the world through her disobedience to God.
Fact: Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and The Life.
Fact: Jesus came into the world through Mary
Fact: Mary obeyed God by saying “Let it be according to Your Will”.

Conclusion: Through one woman came sin and death into the world. Through another came Life and Salvation.

Or do you deny that Jesus (our salvation) came into the world through Mary?

It seems quite hypocritical to me that you are able to read the bible and draw conclusions from it to support your beliefs, but when I do the same thing it’s not aloud. :rolleyes:

And, no, I will not stop reading historical books and other literature, and only read the Bible. That leads to ignorance.
 
Your understanding of Catholic Tradition is wrong here is is from the CCC:

Please read that.
this is the problem.

if God thought he needed another version of the Bible to help explain things then he would have mentioned the CCC but he doesn’t. Stop finding your answer from man, stop trying to please the world. Read the word of God, the Holy Bible “only”.
1Cr 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
1Cr 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Scriptures in the Holy Bible no where else. The first believers in Christ were not Christians or Catholics they were called the “Believers”. Sadducee and the Romans Crucified Jesus Christ. Who or What created the Catholic Church? It surely was not Peter, Peter preach about Jesus Christ, about how he is the Head of the Church. Who do you think is the Head of the Church, the POPE or JESUS? The Romans created the Universal Romans Forever. Look up the Greek word for Catholic - katholikí̱ - Universal
what about Latin - omnium - unviversal.
Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Why universal because at the time they wanted to please all religions. Christianity, idol worshipers, paganism and so on. This was created to please men not God. Today their are Catholics that are starting to realize this and we call the new Catholic Church but the teachings of The Roman Catholic is to guide you away from the truth. Which is Jesus Christ and his teachings. I can point out a lot of flaws but the subject is Mary was not sinless. The fact is the Bible never stated that. We should not assume anything to please our religion, your mother, father, wife, we should understand and obey the Lords decrees.
2Ch 1:11 God said to Solomon, "Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king,

You see Solomon ask God for Wisdom not man. The fear of God is Wisdom, Knowledge is understanding. We need to seek God and his word.
1Cr 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
1Cr 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
 
Fact: Jesus is our savior, and because of him we can be saved. He is our salvation.
Fact: Eve brought sin and death into the world through her disobedience to God.
Fact: Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and The Life.
Fact: Jesus came into the world through Mary
Fact: Mary obeyed God by saying “Let it be according to Your Will”.

Conclusion: Through one woman came sin and death into the world. Through another came Life and Salvation.

Or do you deny that Jesus (our salvation) came into the world through Mary?

It seems quite hypocritical to me that you are able to read the bible and draw conclusions from it to support your beliefs, but when I do the same thing it’s not aloud. :rolleyes:

And, no, I will not stop reading historical books and other literature, and only read the Bible. That leads to ignorance.
it is highly favored that you quote the bible. But i noticed that all your facts are not quotes from the bible but just your opinion.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
 
this is the problem.

if God thought he needed another version of the Bible to help explain things then he would have mentioned the CCC but he doesn’t. Stop finding your answer from man, stop trying to please the world. Read the word of God, the Holy Bible “only”.
1Cr 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
1Cr 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Scriptures in the Holy Bible no where else. The first believers in Christ were not Christians or Catholics they were called the “Believers”. Sadducee and the Romans Crucified Jesus Christ. Who or What created the Catholic Church? It surely was not Peter, Peter preach about Jesus Christ. About how he is the Head of the Church. How do you think is the Head of the Church, the POPE or JESUS? The Romans created the Universal Romans Forever. Look up the Greek word for Catholic - katholikí̱ - Universal
what about Latin - omnium - unviversal.
Col 2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Why universal because at the time they wanted to please all religions. Christianity, idol worshipers, paganism and so on. This was created to please men not God. Today their are Catholics that are starting to realize this and we call the new Catholic Church but the teachings of The Roman Catholic is to guide you away from the truth. Which is Jesus Christ and his teachings. I can point out a lot of flaws but the subject is Mary was not sinless. The fact is the Bible never stated that. We should not assume anything to please our religion, your mother, father, wife, we should understand and obey the Lords decrees.
2Ch 1:11 God said to Solomon, "Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king,

You see Solomon ask God for Wisdom not man. The fear of God is Wisdom, Knowledge is understanding. We need to seek God and his word.
1Cr 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
1Cr 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
You do realize, that until the very recent past, the majority of people couldn’t read, right? Even now, in less developed nations, very few people can read. Additionally, before the invention of the printing press, it would not have been possible for everyone to have a personal copy of the Bible. So you can’t just tell everyone to read their own Bible and they will find the Truth. Even when people read the Bible and interpret it themselves, they all come out with different “truth”. Thus the thousands of denominations we have today. So it is necessary that God established an institution to teach, uphold, and interpret His Word.

If I only believe what is explicitly in the Bible, how do I know what books constitute the canon of the Bible? I obviously have to have s trustworthy authority.
 
Sad thing is that there are many Protestants out there that disrespect and malign the Blessed Mother because of several factors. The first being that they think that all of the ECFs, Doctors of the Church, and Catholics in general are just wrong because these same individuals feel that they and they alone know better and are the true pillar and foundation of truth and sole interpreters of Sacred Scripture.

Next is that they put limits on God because they cannot in their fallible, finite intellect cannot conceive that God has the ability to impart the gift and grace of a sinless state on any human being. They try to box Him in using the Bible as their only source to try and define a God that infinitely transcends the book itself. How sad to define you existence to the borders of a book alone and miss out on all of what Christ’s Church has to offer.

Next is if it is Catholic it is just plain wrong.
 
=mardela;8053573]Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.
now where does it say she was created “Full of Grace”. Matter a fact it doesn’t say it any where in the Bible. It is not even written about Mary’s birth.
Yep" WRONG BIBLE = WRONG RESULTS

From St Jeromes Original Lation Vulagte [Early 5th. Century} AND Douay Rheims whicj pre-dates the KJ Bible by more than 50 years.

25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he hath had regard to take away my reproach among men. 26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

25 Quia sic fecit mihi Dominus in diebus, quibus respexit auferre opprobrium meum inter homines. 26 In mense autem sexto, missus est Angelus Gabriel a Deo in civitatem Galilææ, cui nomen Nazareth, 27 ad Virginem desponsatam viro, cui nomen erat Ioseph, de domo David, et nomen virginis Maria. 28 Et ingressus Angelus ad eam dixit: Ave gratia plena: Dominus tecum: Benedicta tu in mulieribus

God Bless you,
Pat**
 
Pro 15:32 He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding.
Coming from you, that’s amazingly hypocritical! We’re trying to show you our understanding on the matter, and you wholly reject it.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
And protestants take away from it by believing in sola scriptura.
You asked how Mary could be sinless when she calls God her savior, NOT why do we think Mary is sinless. That question was answered - She did need a saviour and God her Savior redeemed her before she was born so that she could be a pure vessel for Him incarnate.
Excellent point mini_me, the question of the thread title here has been answered, there are simply some here who don’t like our answer, nor the truth that Mary is sinless.
 
B]PJM:

ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN

Gen. 5: 22-24 Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methu’selah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. [ASSUMED Body and Soul into Heaven].

2nd. Kings 2: 8-14 Then “Eli’jah took his mantle, and rolled it up, and struck the water, and the water was parted to the one side and to the other, till the two of them could go over on dry ground. When they had crossed, Eli’jah said to Eli’sha, “Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you.” And Eli’sha said, “I pray you, let me inherit a double share of your spirit.” And he said, “You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if you do not see me, it shall not be so.” And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli’jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Eli’sha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw him no more."
Lets talk about this. these two profits were mentioned Mary wasn’t. Let point out that the sins of Adam brought the curse of death. Now you say these two prophets didn’t die but I say they are going to die.
Look at this scripture and tell me who think the Bible is referring to?
Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
If Mary had a been Assumed into Heaven then it would have said three witnesses. their was a reason that Enoch and Elisha were mentioned. it is because they were the only two prophets to ever have been assumed into Heaven. Mary faced the same curse that all men will face, death because we were born into sin. no matter how righteous one becomes the will still face death because we are all born into sin. Even the most righteous, Holy, Perfect, loving, man had to die but on that day that he was risen he gave us a second life, an eternal life, so that when we accept him as the Son of God when we die in the flesh we would still live with God. Their is a second Death and that is eternally separated from God or thrown into the pit of fire.
1Cr 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Pro 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
1Cr 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1Cr 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

As far as I know, and please anyone, correct me if I’m wrong, the Bible says nothing at all about the death of Mary. Does that mean she didn’t die?
 
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