How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

[Nevermore22]

God Bless Mary what a wonderful women she was.

So then you should agree with the first part of the Hail mary:

Haily Mary, Full of Grace,
the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women, and
blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

All of that does come from Scripture. But question is, do you call Mary blessed?

My Goal is to show everyone that you don’t place your trust in the Lord but rather Mary.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Jesus Christ is the Door to eternal life.
How i love Jesus with all my heart.

Actually, you have no idea what I believe. I am actually insulted that you would dare tell me that I put my trust in Mary and not God.
I do in-fact believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Door to eternal life. It was my love of God that led me to the Church which placed Him on a level I never saw before in any Protestant church. It was my trust in God that I had to lead my past behind, and go to a strange Church that had a Mass remembering Christ’s death and resurrection every hour of every day. And at each Mass, three readings from the Bible, a psalm sung, and every move and every prayer and every gesture made in honor of God and for the glory of God.

Don’t you dare tell me what I believe.

 

[mardela]

You obviously know nothing of Catholic beliefs when it comes to the Blessed Mother. do you really think that we place the Blessed Mother above Christ. if so sad mistake.

How often do you pray?
Count how many times do you pray to Mary or talk to Mary to intercede on your behalf.
Count how many times you pray to Jesus.

If the Answer is Mary then you have placed all your love and trust into Mary and not the Son of God.

when you pray or talk to anything that is not God through Jesus Christ. then you are playing with fire.

Exd 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exd 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
Deu 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God

How many times have you bowed down in front of the crucifix how many times have you bowed down to a statue of Mary or a Saint.

Mat 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

[mardela]

So then you should agree with the first part of the Hail mary:

Haily Mary, Full of Grace,
the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women, and
blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

All of that does come from Scripture. But question is, do you call Mary blessed?

Actually, you have no idea what I believe. I am actually insulted that you would dare tell me that I put my trust in Mary and not God.
I do in-fact believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Door to eternal life. It was my love of God that led me to the Church which placed Him on a level I never saw before in any Protestant church. It was my trust in God that I had to lead my past behind, and go to a strange Church that had a Mass remembering Christ’s death and resurrection every hour of every day. And at each Mass, three readings from the Bible, a psalm sung, and every move and every prayer and every gesture made in honor of God and for the glory of God.

Don’t you dare tell me what I believe.

I rather anger man than God

 

[Nevermore22]

I rather anger man than God

You didn’t read my post, did you? Did you read my description of the Church? Why I joined it? How God is the One we worship? How when we talk about saints/Mary, it is asking for their intercession?

Your view of the Church is very poor. I don’t want you to join it, or hate it, but understand it. We are not what you think we are. Read about it. Pray about it. Think about it.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Ok Mardela, let’s play a game:

II Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

There you have it. Undeniable Scriptural evidence for the validity of the Holy Tradition which has been passed down through the centuries by word and writing. Now show me, where is your Scriptural evidence for Sola Scriptura?

 

[mardela]

You didn’t read my post, did you? Did you read my description of the Church? Why I joined it? How God is the One we worship? How when we talk about saints/Mary, it is asking for their intercession?

Your view of the Church is very poor. I don’t want you to join it, or hate it, but understand it. We are not what you think we are. Read about it. Pray about it. Think about it.

Today people refer to the Church as an organization, building or a establishment.

Church is the Body of Christ and Christ is the Head of that church. I don’t go by tradition or cultures. I seek the Lord and his Knowledge and his teachings. The teachings of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Through his knowledge i will have understanding.

Pro 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding

 

[TheMc]

I don’t go by tradition or cultures. I seek the Lord and his Knowledge and his teachings.

Really? Have you read 2 Thessalonians 2:15? There are many other verses like this.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Ok Mardela, let’s play a game:

II Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

There you have it. Undeniable Scriptural evidence for the validity of the Holy Tradition which has been passed down through the centuries by word and writing. Now show me, where is your Scriptural evidence for Sola Scriptura?

This clearly states that the tradition taught by word is the same as the tradition in the written epistles which would be the bible, right?

 

[mardela]

Ok Mardela, let’s play a game:

II Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

There you have it. Undeniable Scriptural evidence for the validity of the Holy Tradition which has been passed down through the centuries by word and writing. Now show me, where is your Scriptural evidence for Sola Scriptura?

The tradition of the New Testament. What is the New Testament? the teachings of Jesus Christ is the New Testament. The Traditions of the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Keep these scriptures in mind. when you talk about tradition.
Mat 15:3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition
Mat 15:6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I’m saying that the phrase “full of grace” in english comes from two different greek phrases/words, and they each have different meaning.

I was talking to jonathanofohio, but let me ask you. These two phrases, do they mean that anyone that is full of grace has never sinned? This seems to be what jonathan is saying.

 

[Cavaradossi]

This clearly states that the tradition taught by word is the same as the tradition in the written epistles which would be the bible, right?

No, the verse does not say, ‘by word, all of which is recorded in our epistle,’ it says, “whether by word, or our epistle.” The qualifier of “whether” obviously implies that some things contained in that which is passed down by word will not be contained that which is passed down through the epistle and vice-versa and that both are valid. It means that both are included in the Tradition. They should agree in teaching though, which is why Tradition is the only acceptable lens through which we can interpret Scripture. Because Scripture can be, at times, not very plainly written, we must check to make sure that the interpretation we come up with agrees with what is taught in the Tradition. If it doesn’t, then we don’t just say, “well St. Basil the Great must’ve just been wrong,” we seek out other sources and if we find that they are in consistent agreement, then the only conclusion which we should then reach is, “my interpretation is against the deposit of the faith and therefore incorrect.” Tradition is the framework for the interpretation of Scripture, and Scripture exists within Tradition. To attempt to interpret Scripture absent of Tradition is like trying to teach oneself to read The Romance of The Three Kingdoms armed with nothing more than a Chinese Dictionary and no prior knowledge of the Chinese language.

 

[mardela]

Jhn 16:28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Here is a Good scripture. It wasn’t written, I came from Mary. Mary is not the mother of God she wasn’t sinless and she had not been assumed to heaven. My earlier post on Enoch and Elisha proves that she had not been assumed to heaven. For all who are born in this world shall die. Even Jesus had die but God resurrected Jesus. Even Enoch and Elisha will die during the tribulation. Read my earlier post or even better read Revelations.

 

[babylonsfalling]

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Jhn 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Pro 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

We all know that the Bible only crowd isn’t REALLY Scripture only when it comes to themselves, what they believe and how they live.

But if you really want to attempt arguments at using one’s own common sense, feel free.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Lets look at this again.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

The one to Come= Jesus

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Who do think is the last adam, a life-giving spirit. = Jesus
what trying to say is don lean on your own understanding.

None of what you just quoted proved any of my statements wrong. In fact they proved them even more correct. The bible sufficiently shows that Jesus is called the New Adam. My statements are noT in contradiction with that at all.

Mary was not without sin she was just a very blessed women. we shouldn’t pray to her, talk to her, or treat her equal to the Jesus.

Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Don’t let Mary or the Saints take the Glory and the love that is due only to the Son of God.
Through Jesus we will have eternal life.

Okay, so according to your teaching God’s prophecy in Genesis was never fulfilled…

“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” - Genesis 3:15.

Now who are these offspring of this woman and who is she? And if it is Mary, and she is a sinner, how could Satan have any deep seeded hatred towards her? If we are her offspring because we are brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, then why is it fitting for you to disown her and reckon her among the sinners?

Don’t let Mary or the Saints take the Glory and the love that is due only to the Son of God.
Through Jesus we will have eternal life.

And where does the Bible teach you that prayer to Saints and Mary detract from the glory of God?

God instructed the Jews to build the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 26), and reverence to the Ark was not irreverence towards God-- . How is it logical that some person or object detracts any glory from God? …This is off topic though and belongs in a new thread, so please start a new thread if you want to talk about that.

Here is a video that will help explain how the Bible, in fact, supports Catholic doctrine on Mary:

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

 

[mardela]

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not actually believe that plants and animals can sin, I was simply showing you the absurdness of your arguments. So I fail to see your point here. It is you that asserted I was incorrect when I said Adam and Eve was without sin and walked the earth by saying that they did not know right from wrong. Now you assert that man knows right from wrong. How any of this demonstrates that anything I said was incorrect, I do not know.

Now let me demonstrate for you how you are incorrect in saying ‘only humans worship God.’, and not by my own opinions but what is plainly stated in the bible:

Truth: All creation worships God.

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” - Revelation 5:13.

Also read Psalm 148. And this is another thing even something non-Catholics believe, and it is even professed in song (‘God Is Great’ -By Hillsong).

I have demonstrated plainly that your interpretations are false on more than one occasion, and yet you continue to profess to me, and to yourself, that you know a truth that I do not. What sense is there in continuing this dialog?

Good your reading the Bible
Keep correcting me, because the more you do the more you will understand.

 

[mardela]

Please don’t spit Scripture out at me. Most of those verses have nothing to do with what I was talking about. Most of those are taken out of context any ways!
If you want me to continue talking about this issue with you, don’t spit our verses. Talk to me with your own words.

Thank you.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

i will continue to Quote scripture.

I lean on the Lords words.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Good your reading the Bible
Keep correcting me, because the more you do the more you will understand.

Do you think we Catholics don’t read the Bible or something? I know this is not on topic, but I am curious.

And what you say is true. I have often times talked with non-Catholics and it got me to learn more about my faith and understand it even better. So even though it might not end up helping you any, it sure helps me!

And I say that because apparently by this statement you assume you know it all. I do not think like that. I try to keep it in perspective and reason as Paul did:

“For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.” 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

 

[Cavaradossi]

The tradition of the New Testament. What is the New Testament? the teachings of Jesus Christ is the New Testament. The Traditions of the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Keep these scriptures in mind. when you talk about tradition.
Mat 15:3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition
Mat 15:6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

Yes, that’s great. Next time don’t take Scripture out of context. In Matthew 15, Christ is speaking to the Pharisees. Colossians similarly speaks of the traditions of men. Thankfully, the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy is based on the teachings of Christ and his Apostles, not the Pharisees, so guess what? None of those verses you quoted are relevant. None of them have to do with the Tradition of Holy Orthodoxy. Our Tradition is the Tradition of which Paul speaks in I Corinthians 11:2, “Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.” Let us remember that the Gospel of John says that, “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.” (John 21:25). Now tell me, what happened to that which was not written down? It was preserved in the oral tradition which Paul references in II Thessalonians 2:15! So you see, your very own denial of Tradition is unbiblical. What do you have to say to that?

 

[mardela]

The point is not, “If she was truly sinless as Catholicism teaches, she wouldn’t need a Savior.” The point is how can Mary already be saved if Christ had not yet gone to the cross to die for the sins of humanity? In fact, Christ had not yet even been conceived and Mary is already declaring herself “saved.” The answer to that question is the Immaculate Conception! By a sovereign act of God he prevented Mary from contracting the original stain of sin and filled her with grace the moment she was conceived. Hence, God saved Mary at conception and that is why she called God her savior. That is why Mary herself said the Mighty One had done great things for her and that from now on all generations would call her blessed.

Mary was not randomly chosen by God by some spiritual lottery from a pool of righteous Jewish women. Mary was created by God and endowed with extraordinary grace for the specific purpose to be the Mother of God incarnate. It takes an extraordinarily righteous woman free from sin by deliberate divine design to be the mother of God raising Him up from an infant and preparing him for his earthly ministry.

Saint Paul’s epistle to the Romans telling us all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God does not mean “all” in the literal sense. If that was true then “all” would include Jesus! Saint Paul also tells us that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. If “all” have sinned and the wages of sin is death, then how is it that Elijah and Enoch never died? By “all” Saint Paul is telling us what is generally true for the condition of humanity, but there are some exceptions. Jesus was an exception, Elijah was an exception, Enoch was an exception, and Mary was an exception. Mary’s salvation from God and her extraordinary grace which lead her to a perfect righteous life was a gift from God she received at conception.

Her pre-conceived son Jesus was the giver of that gift to his mother. Mary is very extraordinary, she is the only mother whose son is God, who created her and then became incarnate in her womb to be the Word of God made flesh. Elizabeth recognized this when Mary paid her a surprise visit, she exclaimed, “But why am I so favored, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?” The word “Lord” used in Luke 1:43 is translated from the Greek word “kurios” which means “the supreme God.”

Mary stuck with her son throughout his entire ministry and when he was arrested, tried, scourged at the pillar, carried his cross and was crucified Mary was there as near to him as possible. And while Mary and Saint John stood at the foot of the cross, one of the last things Jesus said before he died in agony was, *Dear woman behold your son *and then he looked at saint John and said, behold this is your Mother. This was a profound event because what Jesus was doing was giving his mother to the Church as a gift, Therefore, as Saint John was to take Mary into her home from the cross of Christ, we too from the cross of Christ are to take Mary into our homes and hearts. There is much more I have to say about this.

I will conclude by telling you that 13 years ago I was an Assembly of God evangelist for 12 years. During that time I taught Sunday school, street witnessed and lead many lost souls to Christ. But then by the work of the Holy Spirit I discovered that Christ gave us a Church and that being in communion with the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church we are united to Christ perfectly and our relationship with God enters a much more deeper and meaningful dimension. We receive the totality of the Word of God taught perfectly to us in truth without being tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

The bible teaches us that the Church rests on the pillars of Christ and the Bible rests on the pillars of the Church. The Church gave us the bible and Christ gave us the Church. Hence we read in Ephesians 3:10, “His intent was that now, THROUGH THE CHURCH, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms…” We read Saint Paul’s Epistle to Timothy, “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, WHICH IS THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH.” The bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel!

To Him be glory IN THE CHURCH and in CHRIST JESUS throughout all generations, forever and ever! Amen.

Super Saved Catholic Dave

This is a whole lot of opinion based off another persons opinion.
If anybody was chosen it was Abraham then Jacob then Isaac and so own. King David was a descendant of Abraham and so was Mary. Mary was picked because she was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Read the Holy Bible not what a religious organization has written. Read the Teachings of God- Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus Christ- New Testament.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Jhn 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

[mardela]

Do you think we Catholics don’t read the Bible or something? I know this is not on topic, but I am curious.

And what you say is true. I have often times talked with non-Catholics and it got me to learn more about my faith and understand it even better. So even though it might not end up helping you any, it sure helps me!

And I say that because apparently by this statement you assume you know it all. I do not think like that. I try to keep it in perspective and reason as Paul did:

“For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.” 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

Col 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ
Deu 12:32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
Pro 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.