How could Satan choose evil?

[Dorothy]

Insight!? People make myth which could be very different from reality.

Yes, without Divine Refelation people can think mythologically, thinking and doing the best they can.

For me, the Kingdom of God is reality.

I believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[needleskane]

Satan knew what God’s plan was regarding humans. While he had no problem serving God he refused to serve a God-Man (Jesus), And refused to serve a human woman Mary (Queen of Angels and Queen of Saints). So as Dorthy said pride was his downfall.

I do not understand this. Satan knew of God’s plan regarding humans and Jesus…. but if this was before the fall, why would there have been a need for Jesus?

 

[Bahman]

I do not understand this. Satan knew of God’s plan regarding humans and Jesus…. but if this was before the fall, why would there have been a need for Jesus?

Satan knew about the plan and use of Jesus for salvation!

 

[Dorothy]

I do not understand this. Satan knew of God’s plan regarding humans and Jesus…. but if this was before the fall, why would there have been a need for Jesus?

God, being outside of time knew in advance there would be a need for the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity (Jesus Christ, Messiah), to become Incarnate for us.

 

[Bahman]

God, being outside of time knew in advance there would be a need for the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity (Jesus Christ, Messiah), to become Incarnate for us.

Are you saying that Satan didn’t know the fact that he could not beat God’s plan? He is a intellectual being.

 

[Dorothy]

Are you saying that Satan didn’t know the fact that he could not beat God’s plan? He is a intellectual being.

Yes, he is a very intellectual being. Obviously he used his intellect wrongly.

All I know is that he had free will and decided not to serve. God allowed him to have his choice. Other spirit beings followed Satan.

 

[MyNameIsDan]

He’s saying that he doesn’t believe that Satan exists and that mythological creatures are said to behave in all sorts of irrational ways. My answer is that Satan could choose evil because he wasn’t as smart as we often imagine him to be.

Thanks. I did get that, I just wanted him to make his position clearer. He didn’t quite say mythological creatures can behave in all sorts of irrational ways so I can’t comment on that. In any case, his comment doesn’t contribute at all to the discussion, don’t know why he’d bother posting.

 

[MyNameIsDan]

Yeah, philosophy forum was probably better. Many bright folks over there.

Have you heard of one highly favored piece of speculation by theologians concerning the fall of Satan? Namely, that God showed all the angels, of whom Lucifer was their chief, that in the plan of salvation a mere limited human would be the king, God’s own son. Lucifer in his pride could not accept to worship God as human, despite it being God’s will, and irrevocably chose his way instead. He was cast down, or perhaps more accurately cast himself down.

Of course, if we accept this, we could take your question to the next step - what exactly instilled in Lucifer a sense of pride? Is that something angels are naturally prone to? I suspect we are getting beyond our limits of comprehension here. However, like with most philosophical questions, we must ask ourselves does it even matter what the answer is? If we indulge this idle curiosity/speculation too much, it can lead us astray of the real meaty lesson - to love God, reject Satan, and beware of pride.

Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s going anywhere in the philosophy forum.

What I bolded in your response is exactly what I meant. I was also considering that it is probably beyond our limits; this knowledge may be beyond us.

Thanks for answering! Probably one of the few answers that really answers my question.

 

[filiusdextris]

Glad the answer helped somewhat. If I were you, I would examine the many threads that have covered the topic over the years. Go to google, and put in this search without the quotes: “how did satan fall site:catholic.com”. That will pull up several extremely relevant threads from over the last decade or so.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

(though He had the beatific vision and He knows God).

St. Thomas says (S.T. I, 62, 1) that none of the angels enjoyed the Beatific Vision before some of them fell. His reasoning is that a rational creature cannot behold God in his essence and desire anything in his place. The angels had their test, and we are having ours; those who choose God are rewarded with the Beatific Vision.

Still, this doesn’t fully answer the good question in the OP. I’ve wondered about it too.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

what exactly instilled in Lucifer a sense of pride? Is that something angels are naturally prone to?

St. Thomas says (S.T. I, 63, 4) that none of the angels is naturally wicked.

 

[Karen107]

Are you saying that Satan didn’t know the fact that he could not beat God’s plan? He is a intellectual being.

Oh is this question still going on?

Satan isn’t God. The will God is in the Father. Even Jesus as the second person of God had questions about Gods will as we see Jesus in Agony in the garden. This was Satans final chance to get at Jesus…

Luke 22:42 “Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

 

[Karen107]

I tend to stray away from the problem of evil – or rather, I don’t even think about it now.

But someone posted on here a question on the problem of evil and an accompanying link which I clicked. A commenter on the other site asked why would God create Satan, knowing he would be evil.

This got me thinking.

How was Satan able to choose evil? What tempted him if there was no evil in him? Where did this temptation come from? Why would he desire the corrupted good if there was no evil before him? Yes, he has free will and he had the choice to turn away from God, but how could he consider that option?

It seems that Adam and Eve didn’t even think about turning away from God until evil was there to influence them. What would have influenced Satan?

I don’t know if any of that made sense or if I’m even asking the right questions. Sorry if it sounds ridiculous.

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks.

How could we consider the option of turning away from God either? , it is those 7 deadly sins that play with our souls, and we have to avoid those and turn to God for help…

God knows everything we do whether we do good things or bad things but it is by Gods providence that He prevails over evil. So God can allow evil to happen because God gave us free will (even though it is our choice) or help us do His will by fighting with us against the force of evil. Free will is especially good if a person needs to make free will decisions on their lives for the good of God instead of not having any purpose driven life. So God doesn’t want us to be robots controlling all that we do… God is made complete in us as people of Good will who God has sent on a journey with Jesus Christ at the helm…

God didn’t stop satan as God doesn’t help those who do evil in our world but by ‘Gods providence’ those who remain faithful to Him will prevail in the end… Even with satan in our world God will prevail in the end… Now satan is a sly one, and his presence is not always clear,and that’s the problem. But remember that it is our trials and tribulations, and even our failings, that cause us to look towards the light and embrace it…

At least that’s how I understand it…

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I read a book in the adoration chapel about angels. I wish I could cite it for you; and would love it if anyone can reference a place to confirm where this came from.

The story I heard from this book said that God and Lucifer were in love (fraternal love/agape) and Lucifer loved righteousness. When God revealed his full self (Trinity, specifically God the Son) Lucifer rejected all of God because he could not welcome the merciful side of God (Jesus & Holy Spirit) for in Lucifers eyes he could not reconcile sin in any form. It is the rejection of Jesus that caused Lucifer to tempt 1/3 of the angels to leave God in search of a place without sin. Thus, when entering Hell, Lucifer and the other fallen angels punish the sinners without mercy. Since we (the community of saints) make up the body of Christ, the fallen angels try to separate us from God to destroy the body of Christ.

Again, I have no reference to cite, but welcome where the author of the book I read came up with this. I’ve searched “New Advent”, but didn’t find any mention of this story I read in the presence of our Holy And Blessed Sacrament. newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

Anyways, if this story has any validity to it, it explained why Satan chose evil.

 

[MyNameIsDan]

Glad the answer helped somewhat. If I were you, I would examine the many threads that have covered the topic over the years. Go to google, and put in this search without the quotes: “how did satan fall site:catholic.com”. That will pull up several extremely relevant threads from over the last decade or so.

Thanks, I tried Googling it but I think people were on a different level. As in the copy I posted in the philosophy section, people were talking about how Satan had free will and other things. I was talking about the “cause” for him to use his free will contrary to God’s will. I’ll look again anyway if I have the time and hope I find something!

 

[MyNameIsDan]

St. Thomas says (S.T. I, 62, 1) that none of the angels enjoyed the Beatific Vision before some of them fell. His reasoning is that a rational creature cannot behold God in his essence and desire anything in his place. The angels had their test, and we are having ours; those who choose God are rewarded with the Beatific Vision.

Still, this doesn’t fully answer the good question in the OP. I’ve wondered about it too.

Thank you for your answer. Looks like we might not know, given our limitations of knowledge, maybe it isn’t a good question.

 

[Stephen_says]

It seems that Adam and Eve didn’t even think about turning away from God until evil was there to influence them. What would have influenced Satan?
Thanks.

I do remember reading somewhere, can’t find it now, though, that sin would exist without satan, it just would not be as bad…really wish I could find that source…

I think that the only way to avoid evil completely is by being all good, and only God is all good. He did not make angels and humans all good, because then they and we would not need Him in the first place.

He made us to share his love with us, and if we were all good we would have no need of his love.

If we and the angels are not all good by nature, that would mean that there is some propensity in us to cause evil, whether Satan is around or not, and if it would be so with humans, imagine the magnitude of evil capable of being wrought by angels. (I just really wanted to use the word Wrought!)

It is not hard to imagine an angel with a far superior intellect than humans being able to justify evil actions, even with a far superior knowledge of the existence of God.

 

[oldcelt]

Thanks. I did get that, I just wanted him to make his position clearer. He didn’t quite say mythological creatures can behave in all sorts of irrational ways so I can’t comment on that. In any case, his comment doesn’t contribute at all to the discussion, don’t know why he’d bother posting.

Really? Myth is a fascinating subject. Just look at all the posts.

 

[fhansen]

I tend to stray away from the problem of evil – or rather, I don’t even think about it now.

But someone posted on here a question on the problem of evil and an accompanying link which I clicked. A commenter on the other site asked why would God create Satan, knowing he would be evil.

This got me thinking.

How was Satan able to choose evil? What tempted him if there was no evil in him? Where did this temptation come from? Why would he desire the corrupted good if there was no evil before him? Yes, he has free will and he had the choice to turn away from God, but how could he consider that option?

It seems that Adam and Eve didn’t even think about turning away from God until evil was there to influence them. What would have influenced Satan?

I don’t know if any of that made sense or if I’m even asking the right questions. Sorry if it sounds ridiculous.

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks.

The reason Satan could fall, IMO, is, simple as it sounds, that he wasn’t God. He was given a “perfection” proper to his own nature but was inherently limited, imperfect in some way or another relative to God who alone is perfection itself. IOW, even God can’t create another God, no matter how close to perfection He may create a being to be. The real question then is, ‘why would God risk giving free will to His unavoidably less-than-perfect creation?’

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Thank you for your answer. Looks like we might not know, given our limitations of knowledge, maybe it isn’t a good question.

I was thinking that too.

Nothing in scripture, so all else is idle speculation.