How could Satan choose evil?

[bluerose]

The best explanation I ever heard for the fall of the angels was so movingly described in a novel called “Nearer the Dawn” by A. J. Avila (better known to us CAFers as KayCee!)

Basically it’s a matter of pride and how love demands we think less of ourselves and more of our beloved, no matter how difficult it may be or how much we have to humble ourselves. Lucifer was unable to do that.

Here’s the link. It’s available on Kindle for $0.99:
amazon.com/Nearer-Dawn-J-Avila-ebook/dp/B00J1AVQLM/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1423164250&sr=1-1&keywords=nearer+the+dawn

 

[MyNameIsDan]

Really? Myth is a fascinating subject. Just look at all the posts.

If you have nothing to contribute, please post elsewhere.

As for the others, thank you for your replies, I’ll reply as soon as I have time!

 

[oldcelt]

So far as satan choosing evil, the Christian God is omniscient and knew in advance precisely what satan would do, yet still created him. Satan was created to rebel.

 

[Dorothy]

So far as satan choosing evil, the Christian God is omniscient and knew in advance precisely what satan would do, yet still created him. Satan was created to rebel.

God knew in advance what Satan would choose; but Satan (Lucifer) was not created to rebel.

 

[TomD123]

Im cutting in the middle of this thread, but I have two brief points that I think are worth stating.

(1) God only knows that Satan chose evil because Satan chose evil. God could not know what Satan *would * have chosen. I think that this is the case because counterfactuals of freedom (what a hypothetical person would choose or what an actual person would choose in a hypothetical situation) can’t have truth value if we have true free-will.

(2) Satan was drawn towards some good in an inappropriate manner. We do not know what this good was, but it doesn’t necessarily matter. With human sin, we are always tempted by some good, God-given desire. However, it is sinful because the desire is willed outside of its proper context.

 

[oldcelt]

God knew in advance what Satan would choose; but Satan (Lucifer) was not created to rebel.

God knew Satan would rebel before he created him…God still created him…God is the first cause of Satan…Satan rebelled. Had God not created Satan, using his foreknowledge, Satan could have never rebelled.

Please remember, I am arguing from a point of logic. I do not believe that any of this happened.

John

 

[oldcelt]

Im cutting in the middle of this thread, but I have two brief points that I think are worth stating.

(1) God only knows that Satan chose evil because Satan chose evil. **God could not know what Satan *would *** have chosen. I think that this is the case because counterfactuals of freedom (what a hypothetical person would choose or what an actual person would choose in a hypothetical situation) can’t have truth value if we have true free-will.

(2) Satan was drawn towards some good in an inappropriate manner. We do not know what this good was, but it doesn’t necessarily matter. With human sin, we are always tempted by some good, God-given desire. However, it is sinful because the desire is willed outside of its proper context.

If your statement in bold is true, then the Christian God is not omniscient.

**That God knows infallibly and from eternity what, for example, a certain man, in the exercise of free will, will do or actually does in any given circumstances, and what he might or would actually have done in different circumstances is beyond doubt — being a corollary from the eternal actuality of Divine knowledge. **So to speak, God has not to wait on the contingent and temporal event of the man’s free choice to know what the latter’s action will be; He knows it from eternity. But the difficulty is: how, from our finite point of view, to interpret and explain the mysterious manner of God’s knowledge of such events without at the same time sacrificing the free will of the creature.

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

John

 

[tonyrey]

God only knows that Satan chose evil because Satan chose evil. **God could not know what Satan *would ***

Anyone who claims to know the full scope of omniscience is implicitly claiming to be omniscient! How can the choices of a non-existent person possibly be knowable?

 

[Bahman]

Anyone who claims to know the full scope of omniscience is implicitly claiming to be omniscient! How can the choices of a non-existent person possibly be knowable?

How could the act creation be performed in absence of this knowledge!? In another word, subtract all the knowledge about creation to see what you are left with: absolutely nothing!

 

[hasantas]

I tend to stray away from the problem of evil --…
…
…
… Sorry if it sounds ridiculous.

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks.

Vanity and arrogance made Satan to choose evil.

( 34. And behold, We said to the angels: “Bow down to Adam” and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith. Quran, al-Baqarah :34)

And also the haughty make humans to reject God too.

(75. Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a wicked people. Quran, Yünus(Jonah):75)

 

[tonyrey]

Anyone who claims to know the full scope of omniscience is implicitly claiming to be omniscient! How

It is not a question of subtracting** all **the knowledge but only of the hypothetical.
knowledge of non-existent persons.

You still haven’t explained the choices of non-existent persons are knowable. How can anything be known about nothing?

 

[oldcelt]

It is not a question of subtracting** all **the knowledge but only of the hypothetical.
knowledge of non-existent persons.

You still haven’t explained the choices of non-existent persons are knowable. How can anything be known about nothing?

Tony, they may be “non-existent” in human terms, but not to an eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent creator. The Christian God knows all before it ever happens or several of these attributes are incorrect.

John

 

[Bahman]

It is not a question of subtracting** all **the knowledge but only of the hypothetical.
knowledge of non-existent persons.

You still haven’t explained the choices of non-existent persons are knowable. How can anything be known about nothing?

So you mean that we are the result of accident since we are not part of Gods plan? In simple word, the act creation either has some content related to individuals or it does not have. The fatalism is the consequence of the former case and we cannot exist in the later case.