How could the Reformation be of God?

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Christ said to Peter; “On you I will build my church.”

build means to construct!
Every time I read something like this these verses from Ephesians comes to my mind…
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 
Originally Posted by Zundrah
Christ said to Peter; “On you I will build my church.”
And it was constructed - in the first century.
Was Jesus mistaken, then? Go further into the verse where Jesus says "…And the gates of hell will not prevail against it (ie. the Church). And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (making him Prime Minister) And whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven. - Matthew 16:18-19

Then in Matthew 28:20: Jesus said:
“…and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

This is the reason I am a Catholic. Because if the Catholic Church does not have Authority, then Jesus made a false prophecy which means He never was God at all. For me it is the Catholic Church or nothing.
 
The Catholic Church. False teachings like no birth control and no divorce?
The false teaching I specifically referred to in my post was that of Simony - which was condemned by St. Peter as recorded in the New Testament. Acts 8:20 "But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!” The Catholic Church based on taking one of the analogies of Salvation mentioned in the Bible namely, Justification not as an analogy, but as an “explanation” of Salvation - Catholics built an entire system of: Merits, Indulgences, Purgatory etc. which was no where found in the Bible nor in the Early Church. This “selling/purchasing of Indulgences” which was a common practice of the Catholic Church leading up to and during the life of Martin Luther was clearly Simony - the attempted selling/purchasing of a gift of God, His Grace (Divine Energies) needed for Salvation.

It is interesting that you bring up birth control and divorce. Are these issues that you have problems with?

Birth Control is not mentioned specifically by Jesus nor mentioned in the Bible; however, the blessings of children & curse of childlessness is. All marital acts between husband and wife should be open to new life and the spouses should separate for times of deeper prayer/fasting as described in the New Testament - this equates to about 50% of the year. The regular abstinence alone reduces the likelihood of pregnancy. Couples experiencing marital difficulty can meet with their Spiritual Father to see if intentional spacing of children may be permissible to them by use of non-abortive forms of birth control such as NFP.

Divorce is mentioned specifically by Jesus and is recorded in the Bible. Jesus declared that marriage was intended to be until death, but that He had allowed Moses to allow His people to divorce due to the hardness of their hearts. Jesus also repeated mentioned that for reasons of sexual immorality divorce is permitted: Matt. 5:32 & Matt. 19:9. And in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 3:“6 The LORD said ** also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot.** 7 And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.” My bolding. Through this Scripture, it is clear that even God Himself gave a divorce certificate to His “old” Bride, the people of Israel for the same reason Jesus cites as a reason for divorce. Jesus in the New Testament explains that there is a valid reason to obtain a divorce. But currently, the Roman Catholic Church does not teach or practice this teaching of Jesus permiting divorce in certain circumstances. The current Roman Catholic Church practice of issuing Annulments rather than Divorces (declaring that a marriage never existed between a husband and wife) is not present anywhere in the Bible or teachings of Jesus, nor in the Early Church Fathers’ writings.
 
In some ways in Germany at the time the bath water needed to be tossed. What is your definition of “the baby”?
Jon
What immediately comes to mind are the Mysteries: Chrismation, Valid Ordination of Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Valid Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, etc.
 
What immediately comes to mind are the Mysteries: Chrismation, Valid Ordination of Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Valid Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, etc.
I recognize some from the scriptures…What are the others…Like christmation and mysteries…
 
Originally Posted by Zundrah
Christ said to Peter; “On you I will build my church.” Was Jesus mistaken, then? Go further into the verse where Jesus says "…And the gates of hell will not prevail against it (ie. the Church). And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (making him Prime Minister) And whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven. - Matthew 16:18-19
How in the world does my comment suggest that Jesus was mistaken? He built his church. It was built on Peter. Peter was indeed given the keys to the Kingdom, and he unlocked the door at Pentecost for all to enter who were willing (Acts 2:38).

You are equivocating between the church being built, members being added, and doctrines being established. The church was built in the first century. Jesus continues to add people to it this day. However, all truth was revealed in the first century, or Jesus was a liar. Again, easy choice.
Then in Matthew 28:20: Jesus said:
“…and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”
This is the reason I am a Catholic. Because if the Catholic Church does not have Authority, then Jesus made a false prophecy which means He never was God at all. For me it is the Catholic Church or nothing.
Non sequitur. It simply does not follow that if the Catholic church does not have authority then Jesus somehow lied. You’ve got a lot of mental gymnastics and leaps of logic before you could possibly reach this conclusion.

For me it is Jesus Christ or nothing.
 
I recognize some from the scriptures…What are the others…Like christmation and mysteries…
“Holy Mysteries” is the term prefered by Orthodox and means the same thing as “Sacraments”, Christmation is the same as Confermation in the West, although it is done immediatly after Baptism in the East.
 
I recognize some from the scriptures…What are the others…Like christmation and mysteries…
Christmation normally immediately follows Baptism: Acts 8:14 “Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” My bold

Mysteries include what Roman Catholics call Sacraments.
 
“Holy Mysteries” is the term prefered by Orthodox and means the same thing as “Sacraments”, Christmation is the same as Confermation in the West, although it is done immediatly after Baptism in the East.
Thank you…Could you explain a little of this: Confermation. I had a pretty radical conversion experience…I came home from the evangelistic service feeling like a weight was lifted off my back…I felt washed/cleaned inside…I laid in bed for hours feeling like love and joy were just bubbling out…My life changed from night to day…That was almost 40 years ago…I never heard much about the things you are talking about…I was water baptized a year later in a farm pond with hundreds of others… I go to a church that has it’s roots in the Anabaptist…May the Lord bless you and draw you closer…K
 
the first reformers or protester of the catholic church where as early as the second or third centuery. they were not protesting it’s doctrine they were protest it’s wealth and power and the abuse of it
 
the first reformers or protester of the catholic church where as early as the second or third centuery. they were not protesting it’s doctrine they were protest it’s wealth and power and the abuse of it
The Church was still being persecuted and could not legally own anything in the second and third centuries. I’m not sure what wealth and power it had that could be protested.
 
Thank you…Could you explain a little of this: Confermation. I had a pretty radical conversion experience…I came home from the evangelistic service feeling like a weight was lifted off my back…I felt washed/cleaned inside…I laid in bed for hours feeling like love and joy were just bubbling out…My life changed from night to day…That was almost 40 years ago…I never heard much about the things you are talking about…I was water baptized a year later in a farm pond with hundreds of others… I go to a church that has it’s roots in the Anabaptist…May the Lord bless you and draw you closer…K
I’m not sure what you’re asking for an explanation on entirely,

Christmation/Confermation is the sealing of the Holy Spirit upon the catechumen with the “Chrisma” oil, an oil which (in the Orthodox tradition, not sure about any others) is remixed every year, using the oil from the year before. Essentially everyone is chrismated with the same oil, creating a very real link between every member of the church, past, present, and future.
 
What immediately comes to mind are the Mysteries: Chrismation, Valid Ordination of Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Valid Eucharist, Annointing of the Sick, etc.
We have Confirmation, we contend our presbyter ordination to be valid based on divine law, and and precedent set by Boniface IX, Martin V, and Innocent VIII, in allowing Cistercian abbots who were only priests to ordain, and therefore, our Eucharist is valid. As for annointing the sick, in Lutheranism, prayers for the sick can be accompanied by annointing of oil.

Jon
 
Curiously, the Lutherans made such an overture in the 1600’s. It is an interesting dialogue. But even had it been successful, that would not have greatly effected the number of Protestant denominations today, since virtually none have direct roots in Lutheranism.
angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutheran-orthodox.html
That overture consisted of sending a copy of Luther’s 95 thesis to the EP, who tried to ignore them until he was forced by decorum to make a statement on them. He agreed with several, but gave the reasons why he had issues with quite a few others. It was never seen as a serious attempt at reconciliation with the Orthodox because when corrected the Lutherens tried to justify the thesis’ rather than accepting what we believe.
 
That overture consisted of sending a copy of Luther’s 95 thesis to the EP, who tried to ignore them until he was forced by decorum to make a statement on them. He agreed with several, but gave the reasons why he had issues with quite a few others. It was never seen as a serious attempt at reconciliation with the Orthodox because when corrected the Lutherens tried to justify the thesis’ rather than accepting what we believe.
Actually, I believe it was the Augsburg Confession, not the 95 theses. But you are correct, the dialogue was short-lived, unfortunately.

Jon
 
Divorce is mentioned specifically by Jesus and is recorded in the Bible. Jesus declared that marriage was intended to be until death, but that He had allowed Moses to allow His people to divorce due to the hardness of their hearts. Jesus also repeated mentioned that for reasons of sexual immorality divorce is permitted: Matt. 5:32 & Matt. 19:9. And in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 3:“6 The LORD said ** also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot.** 7 And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.” My bolding. Through this Scripture, it is clear that even God Himself gave a divorce certificate to His “old” Bride, the people of Israel for the same reason Jesus cites as a reason for divorce. Jesus in the New Testament explains that there is a valid reason to obtain a divorce. But currently, the Roman Catholic Church does not teach or practice this teaching of Jesus permiting divorce in certain circumstances. The current Roman Catholic Church practice of issuing Annulments rather than Divorces (declaring that a marriage never existed between a husband and wife) is not present anywhere in the Bible or teachings of Jesus, nor in the Early Church Fathers’ writings.
Wrong and false teaching.

The correct teaching,
"1. The Original Indissolubility of Marriage and Its Restoration by Christ.—The inadmissibility of absolute divorce was ordained by Christ Himself according to the testimony of the Apostles and Evangelists: “Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery” (Mark, x, 11, 12.—Cf. Matt., xix, 9; Luke, xvi, 18). In like manner, St. Paul: “To them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. And if she depart, that she remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And let not the husband put away his wife” (I Cor., vii, 10, 11). In these words Christ restored the original indissolubility of marriage as it had been ordained by God in the Creation and was grounded in human nature. This is expressly stated by Him against the Pharisees, who put forward the separation allowed by Moses: “Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so” (Matt., xix, 8); “He who made man from the beginning, made them male and female. And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder” (Matt., xix, 4-6). The indissolubility of all marriage, not merely of Christian marriage, is here affirmed. The permanence of marriage for the whole human race according to natural law is here confirmed and ratified by a Divine positive ordinance.’

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Divorce
 
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