How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

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Noose001 said:
So i guess there’s no beginning of time
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There was no time when the material universe did not exist.

You may take that either way. Time is one of the four dimensions of the Einsteinian space-time manifold.
 
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rossum said:
There was no time when the material universe did not exist.

You may take that either way. Time is one of the four dimensions of the Einsteinian space-time manifold.
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Again, things start or end because of time, does time start because of time?
 
Freddy said:
So if nobody sees something happening then it doesn’t happen.

Roger that.
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Hardly what i meant, that sounds so close to “if we scale down on the covid-19 tests then cases will be low”

But i need your opinion based on your definition of time.

Does it mean that if everything stops then we are all dead?
Does it mean that if we are all dead everything stops
 
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Noose001 said:
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Freddy:
So if nobody sees something happening then it doesn’t happen.

Roger that.
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Hardly what i meant, that sounds so close to “if we scale down on the covid-19 tests then cases will be low”

But i need your opinion based on your definition of time.

Does it mean that if everything stops then we are all dead?
Does it mean that if we are all dead everything stops
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Yes to the first and no to the second.
 
rossum said:
First show me an even integer between 2 and 4. Your question is nonsensical.
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Why are things time bound, is it not because they have a beginning an end? But you are also saying time has a beginning and an end, so is time time bound?

And don’t be mad at me, i’m also trying to figure out. 😜
 
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Noose001 said:
What is the connection between time and life?
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@Freddy, let’s expound on your answer.

If everything stops, we all die.

This is true but it is an understatement, if time stops, everything disappears. Our bodies will not be here continuing to decompose, they will disappear together with the stones and elements and atoms and everything because if there’s anything, it inherently undergoes changes.

But if time restarts, will everything reappear and continue from where we left? Will our bodies reappear and continue rotting because we can not come back alive or can we?

My bet is, because it is not possible for time to restart just like that and everything to reappear out of nowhere just like it is not possible to come back alive or life to reappear, it is life that creates everything else through experience of passage of time.

So if we die, everything else goes…yeah but this is the true meaning of death, i almost forgot.
 
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We don’t know much about and clearly have trouble conceiving of the concept of non-time. So asking our primate brains to then draw conclusions about what non-time looks like or how it behaves, to the degree those words even make sense, seems folly.
 
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Dan123 said:
We don’t know much about and clearly have trouble conceiving of the concept of non-time. So asking our primate brains to then draw conclusions about what non-time looks like or how it behaves, to the degree those words even make sense, seems folly.
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Yet you are here trying to discuss the origin of the universe, aren’t you aware that the origin is the transition between non-time to time?
 
Noose001 said:
Yet you are here trying to discuss the origin of the universe, aren’t you aware that the origin is the transition between non-time to time?
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Sure, and I’m saying drawing definitive conclusions based solely on a rational thought process that is built to work inside space and time is something that should be tempered. Unless someone here knows how universes are created, which I doubt, we can draw lots of inferences about what seems logical but I guess I’m just saying humility suggests we keep open minds, especially where limited evidence exists.

Or in a more practical sense, the current best explanation of the origin of the universe includes time as something that came into existence at the same moment. What “non-time” looked like before that, if before even makes sense, is harder to speak to. We’re butting up against quantum physics which is very much a frontier with a lot of questions.
 
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Dan123 said:
You realize we move closer to that all the time? And it’s not like there’s some large scale effort to do it. There isn’t a huge amount of commercial value right now to have skeletal style robots because for the purposes we use them for there are much better arrangements.
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Any advancement in robotics engineering will come about through purposeful intelligent design. Teams of the best engineers in the world are gradually finding solutions. They will have very clear goals to aim for; powerful computers will guide the way forwards.

Compare this to blind random mutation and natural selection without any goals to aim for. How can blind mutation and selection outsmart our best engineers? Starting from abiogenesis.
Dan123 said:
Plus you seem to base this on the idea that we’re currently at some kind of peak, that if we can’t do something now it must be impossible and God can be the only explanation. That seems hasty.
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The point of this thread was to ask, how can blind evolution outsmart our best engineers? How could this happen without God?
 
Eric_Hyom said:
Any advancement in robotics engineering will come about through purposeful intelligent design. Teams of the best engineers in the world are gradually finding solutions. They will have very clear goals to aim for; powerful computers will guide the way forwards.

Compare this to blind random mutation and natural selection without any goals to aim for. How can blind mutation and selection outsmart our best engineers? Starting from abiogenesis.
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Do our engineers have a few billion years to work on the problem? Or are you expecting them to do in a decade what it took nature eons to do?
Eric_Hyom said:
The point of this thread was to ask, how can blind evolution outsmart our best engineers? How could this happen without God?
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The title says nothing about there being some kind of race between nature and scientists.
 
Freddy said:
Evolution (or God) has done a pretty average job in designing us.
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I agree; death has to be the greatest imperfection.

Despite all the imperfections, I would not call the skeletal system an average design. Our best engineers cannot replicate our complete range of movements.
 
Dan123 said:
Sure, and I’m saying drawing definitive conclusions based solely on a rational thought process that is built to work inside space and time is something that should be tempered. Unless someone here knows how universes are created, which I doubt, we can draw lots of inferences about what seems logical but I guess I’m just saying humility suggests we keep open minds, especially where limited evidence exists.

Or in a more practical sense, the current best explanation of the origin of the universe includes time as something that came into existence at the same moment. What “non-time” looked like before that, if before even makes sense, is harder to speak to. We’re butting up against quantum physics which is very much a frontier with a lot of questions.
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Are you serious? Rational thought is all there is, everything else is a perception of rational thought. You can not limit rational thought with space-time, that’s why we are going back, way back and i can, without any controversy or fear, tell the conditions before the universe were dark, very dark and silent, very silent plus many other things, how could it not be?
 
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Noose001 said:
i can, without any controversy or fear, tell the conditions before the universe were dark, very dark and silent, very silent plus many other things, how could it not be?
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If there was no space, what is it that was dark?
 
Eric_Hyom said:
Despite all the imperfections, I would not call the skeletal system an average design. Our best engineers cannot replicate our complete range of movements.
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I don’t think they are trying to. Because we have hundreds of muscles and tendons that move our skeletal system, engineers are looking at ways to design motions needed for (mostly) production capacities without having to have hundreds of ropes and pulleys doing it. They are looking for far more simplicity and precision…not replicating ours.
 
Pattylt said:
I don’t think they are trying to.
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And just to head off an objection, there’s plenty of efforts in universities and such to study possible methods and applications. I suspect you and I are saying the same thing, that without a necessary and likely commercial application, it’s not any kind of major goal for society. The stuff that is being done is pretty cool though.

 
Eric_Hyom said:
When you look at these robots, I think we can start to appreciate how complex our bodies are. How much intelligent design went into designing these robots?
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To go from steam engines to this in basically a century? A lot.
 
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