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STT
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The universe is infinite so any form of life that is possible can comes true.
How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?
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Noose001
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God=wisdom
God did not create God.
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Eric_Hyom
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We know all these species exist. Now can we have an explanations as to how 500 muscles, 200 bones, 500 ligaments and a 1000 tendons.might have evolved in incremental stages. You fleetingly mention vertebra, but not how all these intricate shapes within the vertebra evolved
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We have had the explanation as to how the eye lens may have evolved over 1800 incremental stages. How about the skeletal system.
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rossum
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How about it. Please give us, in detail, the stages God went through to create the skeletal system and muscles. Pay particular attention to the steps which are impossible for evolution to perform. Then we can concentrate our discussion on those steps.
Whatever evidence you can provide will be useful; this is a science discussion after all.
As for vertebrae, have a look at a plesiosaur vertebrae, the neck and tail particularly. Vertebrae do not have to be complex.
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Eric_Hyom
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So far there has been no science to show how the universe came into existence without God. Only guess work to say how abiogenesis might have happened.
This thread is about; where is the evidence to show how life could evolve without god?
The plesiosaur vertebrae is incredibly complex with all the tendons, ligaments and muscles, it also protects the spinal chord.The eye and the brain help govern its movement. How did the HOX gene and the plesiosaur vertebrae evolve?
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Freddy
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It seems to me that your only options for both are that either God did them supernaturally, in which case you are almost obliged to deny a natural explanation OR He did it using natural processes. In which case the science will inform you of the process - which would be exactly the same if He didn’t exist.rossum:
So far there has been no science to show how the universe came into existence without God. Only guess work to say how abiogenesis might have happened.
I’m not sure why you didn’t lay your cards on the table at the outset. You would have answered your own question.
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Eric_Hyom
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I have often heard it said that atheists use science, logic and reason to show there is no God. I wanted to try and understand how strong this evidence is.
I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. For me; evolution was a deciding factor. I agree with you, that the skeletal system does not look like a good design. Having said that, when I look at the range of movement and its versatility, it is an incredible machine.
If it took around 1800 incremental steps for the shape of the eye lens to evolve. How many incremental steps would it take for every single bone, ligament, tendon and muscle to evolve? Once the shape of each component has formed it then has to connect up to its neighbour.
I appreciate there is fossil evidence to back up the theory of evolution.
How could all this happen without guidance from God?
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AlNg
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What does the Bord-Guth-Vilenkin Theory say?
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AlNg
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Wasn’t the Talmud censored during the middle ages to delete or disguise references to Jesus? If so, would that not be evidence from a non-Christian source that Jesus did exist?
Some physicists argue for the cyclical theory.
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Freddy
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As I said, it can happen with God using natural processes which we can understand. Or He did it supernaturally in ways we can’t. There is no evidence of the latter.Freddy:
I have often heard it said that atheists use science, logic and reason to show there is no God. I wanted to try and understand how strong this evidence is.
I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. For me; evolution was a deciding factor. I agree with you, that the skeletal system does not look like a good design. Having said that, when I look at the range of movement and its versatility, it is an incredible machine.
If it took around 1800 incremental steps for the shape of the eye lens to evolve. How many incremental steps would it take for every single bone, ligament, tendon and muscle to evolve? Once the shape of each component has formed it then has to connect up to its neighbour.
I appreciate there is fossil evidence to back up the theory of evolution.
How could all this happen without guidance from God?
If the forme, then there is nothing to determine if God was guiding the process or whether it is a natural process that doen’t require a divine hand.
Your decision on whether God exists based on other matters will determine which one you select. Whether God was involved or not in the evolutionary process itself won’t make that decision for you. It can’t. There is no evidence either way.
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stoplooklisten
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Some physicists speculate and posit the imaginary. There is no evidence for a cyclical cosmology. There is evidence for a “Big Bang”. The universe had a beginning. It is expanding at an accelerating rate. The universe will have an end.
Beyond physical evidence and human reason, there is a also Divine Revelation to consider. God has spoken to humanity. It began with revelation to Adam and Eve. It continued throughout Biblical history. It continues in the contemporary Church. We believe in the Holy Spirit.
Catholic encyclopedia article on Revelation. Link: Click here.
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MJCarzon
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It basically says that the universe had a scientifically verifiable “hard start”, about 13.7 billion years ago.
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rossum
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Thank you for confirming that you have no evidence. We have some evidence for abiogenesis, such as the natural non-miraculous formation of purines and pyrimidines. That is more evidence than you appear to have for divine abiogenesis.
So, you again have no evidence. You will find it difficult to win a science discussion with no evidence on your side. In science the default answer is “We don’t know” and it takes evidence to move science away from that answer. Your God, or Allah or Vishnu or any other deity cannot win by default. In the absence of evidence all deities lose to the default.
A vertebra is a piece of bone. Tendons, ligaments muscles and the spinal cord are not bone, they are different tissues with different evolutionary origins.
There are plenty of animals with tendons, ligaments, muscles and nerves but no bones. Jellyfish and earthworms have muscles but no bones. And a plesiosaur vertebra is about as simple as a vertebra gets:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
How did this evolve? By random mutation and natural selection. We have much scientific evidence for both processes. You apparently have no evidence to show us of divine creation.
As I said before, there is a great deal of scientific evidence for evolution. You are better off concentrating on abiogenesis and cosmogenesis, where the scientific evidence is not so abundant and your lack of evidence is less of a disadvantage.
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rossum
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The Talmud is not scripture. The Tanakh is scripture. It should come as no surprise that the Jewish interpretation of the Tanakh differs from the Christian interpretation of the Old Testament.
Then this iteration of the material universe had a beginning.
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AlNg
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I don’t believe you are stating the theorem correctly. It is a misinterpretation.
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AlNg
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I was speaking of evidence of the existence of Jesus.
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Dan123
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They don’t form independently and then come together at the end. The system develops slowly and incrementally.
Until you demonstrate God is necessary this is a malformed question. One might just as reasonable ask if God was guiding it, why did it take so long?
Do planes fly because of the rules of physics, or does God guide the rules of physics to make the planes fly?
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MJCarzon
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Enlighten me
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AlNg
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Why not defend your position? You brought up the BGV theory?
Anyway, please read:
where they say that in the recycling scenario in which each comoving region goes through a succession of inflationary and thermalized epochs, there is the possibility of discontinuities between the inflationary and thermalized regions. And Sean Carroll says: “ no result derived on the basis of classical spacetime can be used to derive anything truly fundamental, since classical general relativity isn’t right. You need to quantize gravity. The BGV singularity theorem is certainly interesting and important, because it helps us understand where classical GR breaks down, but it doesn’t help us decide what to do when it breaks down.” So it is uncertain.
Further, although the universe may be geodesically incomplete under some conditions which correspond to eternal inflation, you can also have eternal inflation being grafted onto a spacetime region which is not eternally inflating. Also please see the paper of Aguirre which shows that inflation may be past eternal, which would therefore avoid a beginning of time.
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Eric_Hyom
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If it were convincing, we would all agree with you. At the moment, the 'some evidence that you claim amounts to suggestions.
That also applies to you. I have asked for the science to show how creation and abiogenesis could happen by natural causes. So far I have seen lots of arguments for evolution purely by natural causes.
Ummmmmmmmmmm.
When you put all these together in a spine, you can see design.
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