How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

[rossum]

The amino acids used in Biochemical processes are of certain chiral configuration which shows that non was a result of natural or random processes.
No experiments has reproduced these amino acids.

Your sources are lying to you yet again. Since the anti-evolution sites have no evidence on their side they have to lie to give the (false) appearance of having evidence.

Scientists were aware in 1952 of the chirality problem with amino acids. When scientists see a problem they have a look at it to see if they can find a solution. Whatever source told you “No experiments has reproduced these amino acids” was lying to you. How do I know they were lying? Because I have at least one paper referring to just such an experiment:

Noorduin et al (2008) Emergence of a Single Solid Chiral State from a Nearly Racemic Amino Acid Derivative.

That paper describes a natural process to form a chiral assembly of amino acids from an original racemic (both left- and right-handed) mix of molecules.

I might forgive your source if it is dated before 2008, but if it is any later then that source was lying to you. Science is always producing new data, so old sources may become out of date. If your source was before 2008 then it is out of date and should be rejected. If your source was after 2008 then it is either incompetent or lying and again should be rejected.

Science is not like the Bible, what science says changes over time as new things are discovered.

 

[Noose001]

Your sources are lying to you yet again. Since the anti-evolution sites have no evidence on their side they have to lie to give the (false) appearance of having evidence.

Scientists were aware in 1952 of the chirality problem with amino acids. When scientists see a problem they have a look at it to see if they can find a solution. Whatever source told you “No experiments has reproduced these amino acids” was lying to you. How do I know they were lying? Because I have at least one paper referring to just such an experiment:

Maybe i need to reword my statement.

‘No experiment has exclusively reproduced the L-amino acids which are required for Biochemical process’

R-amino acids means death to the organism and any natural or random process as the experiments have shown always produce a mixture of R and L amino acids which means death to the organism.

Scientists know the problem but does nature know the problem?

 

[rossum]

‘No experiment has exclusively reproduced the L-amino acids which are required for Biochemical process’

Fine. We have many experiments that naturally form a mix of L- and R-amino acids. That racemic mix forms the (name removed by moderator)ut to the Noorduin paper that naturally forms a chiral output from the racemic (name removed by moderator)ut.

That takes two experiments. For science that is enough. Natural processes can produce a chiral mix of amino acids, as required for life.

R-amino acids means death to the organism and any natural or random process as the experiments have shown always produce a mixture of R and L amino acids which means death to the organism.

Again false. The Noorduin experiment produced a chiral output.

Have you replaced your faulty sources yet?

 

[stoplooklisten]

There was always something, whether the multiverse, an oscillating universe or whatever. There are a number of cosmological hypotheses, none involving deities. There is currently insufficient evidence to pick between the various hypotheses.

There is no multiiverse. There are no souvenirs or artifacts from the multiverse. It’s a speculative fictional fantasy.

Then there is history. Did these people and events exist?

• Abraham
• Israel and his twelve sons
• Moses
• Samuel
• David
• Solomon
• Elijah
• King Nebuchnezzar
• The Prophet Isaiah
• The Prophet Jeremiah
• The Prophet Daniel
• Jesus and the Resurrected Jesus
• The Twelve Apostles
• The witnesses and martyrs of the early Church.
• Apostolic succession of Catholic (and Orthodox) bishops since Jesus and the Twelve Apostles

Historical testimony and artifacts point toward “Yes”. Witnesses and martyrs say “Yes”. Who’s in denial? How do we respond?

 

[stoplooklisten]

It’s because nobody ever blew up a laboratory, or killed busloads of women and children, because they believed that the Copenhagen interpretation was true, and the Many World’s Interpretation was false.

Atheism and Catholicism have both had their fruits. Neither is perfect. Both systems may, at times, promote love and morality. One deliberately promotes holiness. One develops saints.

 

[rossum]

Then there is history. Did these people and events exist?

Abraham, Israel and his twelve sons

Almost certainly not. They are the origin story of the Twelve Tribes.

Moses

Likely a real person, but heavily overlaid with later accretions. Similar to Herakles or King Arthur.

Samuel, David, Solomon, Elijah, King Nebuchnezzar, The Prophet Isaiah, The Prophet Jeremiah, The Prophet Daniel

Likely real, though the Book of Daniel is by two separate authors writing many years apart.

Jesus and the Resurrected Jesus

Jesus yes, though again with a lot of added stories. The birth stories in particular have problems, as pointed out by Schuerer in 1885. The Resurrection requires evidence of death and not a coma. We know from Josephus that someone taken down from a cross early (as Jesus was) can survive.

The Twelve Apostles, The witnesses and martyrs of the early Church, Apostolic succession of Catholic (and Orthodox) bishops since Jesus and the Twelve Apostles

Mostly they exist, though some of the early saints are probably apocryphal, such as Saint Christopher.

Historical testimony and artifacts point toward “Yes”. Witnesses and martyrs say “Yes”. Who’s in denial? How do we respond?

Historical testimony and artefacts point towards Troy, Mycenae and Homer. Does that mean that the Greek gods exist? We have witness accounts in Homer. Christians martyred pagans once they gained power. Does that make paganism true?

 

[Noose001]

Fine. We have many experiments that naturally form a mix of L- and R-amino acids. That racemic mix forms the (name removed by moderator)ut to the Noorduin paper that naturally forms a chiral output from the racemic (name removed by moderator)ut.

That takes two experiments. For science that is enough. Natural processes can produce a chiral mix of amino acids, as required for life.

1.Noorduin experiment is an intelligent set up, the primordial soup was not and therefore was toxic for life.
2. The experiment fails because it proposes enhancement of chirality overtime, life is not life with a single R-amino acid at any given moment, it has to be L-amino acid. no chances, no enhancements.

Again false. The Noorduin experiment produced a chiral output.

It was designed to address a problem, a huge problem but it didn’t.

 

[stoplooklisten]

The Resurrection requires evidence of death and not a coma.

You know, there are a variety of fish. Some are big and some are little.

There are a variety of people. Some are believers; some are skeptics.

 

[rossum]

1.Noorduin experiment is an intelligent set up, the primordial soup was not and therefore was toxic for life.

That is not relevant. Read the Noorduin paper, no living organisms are involved in the process. That process could happen before life appeared, as with the appearance of amino acids.

Abiogenesis research looks at non-biological processes which can cause the necessary precursor chemicals for life. Hence they take place before life starts.

If life has already started then we are after abiogenesis, not before it.

 

[lelinator]

Atheism and Catholicism have both had their fruits. Neither is perfect. Both systems may, at times, promote love and morality. One deliberately promotes holiness. One develops saints.

Are you assuming that the other doesn’t? Are you saying that there can’t be an atheistic version of Mother Teresa out there somewhere? Someone who devotes their life to serving the poor. I don’t think that selflessness and compassion are solely Catholic attributes. In fact, there are probably a great number of Mother Teresa’s out there.

But there’s just one problem, unless they do it in the name of Christ, Catholicism says that they’ll probably spend eternity in hell.

Just think, a multitude of Mother Teresa’s spending eternity in hell.

 

[Noose001]

That is not relevant. Read the Noorduin paper, no living organisms are involved in the process. That process could happen before life appeared, as with the appearance of amino acids.

Abiogenesis research looks at non-biological processes which can cause the necessary precursor chemicals for life. Hence they take place before life starts.

If life has already started then we are after abiogenesis, not before it.

So what is life? It seems abiogenesis doesn’t even attempt to explain its origin.

Noorduin experiment is a failed attempt to explain how we ended up with 100% L-amino acids as biomolecules. A random process will certainly end up with both configurations which is a toxic environment for life.

If nature only ensures L-amino acids then why do we have R-amino acids?

 

[rossum]

So what is life? It seems abiogenesis doesn’t even attempt to explain its origin.

Abiogenesis is working towards an explanation. Abiogenesis can explain the origin of amino acids. Where is your evidence of any god creating amino acids?

Your religion does not explain the origin of life; it merely assumes it. Science is looking for an explanation, and have found some parts of the puzzle.

Noorduin experiment is a failed attempt to explain how we ended up with 100% L-amino acids as biomolecules.

It was not trying to answer that question. Living organisms have a great many mechanisms for picking, sorting, changing and arranging molecules that non-living systems do not. Do not confuse pre-abiogenesis processes with post-abiogenesis processes; they are different.

If nature only ensures L-amino acids then why do we have R-amino acids?

Because nature makes both, as the Miller-Urey experiment showed. Was that really so difficult that you had to ask?

 

[stoplooklisten]

Are you assuming that the other doesn’t? Are you saying that there can’t be an atheistic version of Mother Teresa out there somewhere? Someone who devotes their life to serving the poor.

Actually, I think that there are good and altruistic persons who are not Catholic or Christian and their service may include service to the poor.

As for comparisons to Mother Theresa (1910-1997), probably none outside of Catholic religious orders have made similar vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

I do think that philosophy and lifestyle and gifts and graces and self-discipline produce their fruit. Not all fruit is the same.

Catholicism won’t speak to the eternal destiny of Judas Iscariot. We need to wait for judgment.

Human hearts do desire justice but do need mercy. Seemingly, many evil deeds have never been opposed and many good deeds have gone unrewarded.

The praise of the saints in eternity is likely to include: Praise the LORD, for he is good for his mercies endure forever. (Psalm 136:1)

 

[rossum]

probably none outside of Catholic religious orders have made similar vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

Orthodox monks and some Hindu and Buddhist monks will disagree I suspect. I’m not sure about Jain monks.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Orthodox monks and some Hindu and Buddhist monks will disagree I suspect. I’m not sure about Jain monks.

Agree. Thank you. Yes, remarkable degrees of devotion and discipline can exist outside the Roman Catholic Church.

Still, I think that the RCC may stand alone in affirming “heroic virtue” as it does and in defining examples of it. Reference: Heroic virtue - Wikipedia.

 

[lelinator]

As for comparisons to Mother Theresa (1910-1997), probably none outside of Catholic religious orders have made similar vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

But then again, they might not have Mother Teresa’s somewhat sadistic side either.

 

[Pattylt]

But then again, they might not have Mother Teresa’s somewhat sadistic side either.

I’m not sure I would call it sadistic though it can appear that way. I think that it’s just that most people don’t understand nor agree with the catholic view on suffering. To us outsiders, she certainly did some very questionable acts but she did them from a catholic perspective. We can disagree with her methods but I wouldn’t say she was a sadist. YMMV.

 

[lelinator]

I’m not sure I would call it sadistic though it can appear that way. I think that it’s just that most people don’t understand nor agree with the catholic view on suffering. To us outsiders, she certainly did some very questionable acts but she did them from a catholic perspective. We can disagree with her methods but I wouldn’t say she was a sadist.

I agree. It just goes to show that even the saints among us aren’t perfect, and most of them don’t get any recognition in this lifetime. It wouldn’t seem just to me though, if many of them have to spend eternity in hell, simply because their sacrifice wasn’t done in the right name. I say judge the heart behind the act, not the name.

To me, compassion should be counted as contrition, and forgiveness should be awarded accordingly.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

But there’s one very important reason why my belief system is vastly superior to yours.

It’s because nobody ever blew up a laboratory, or killed busloads of women and children, because they believed that the Copenhagen interpretation was true, and the Many World’s Interpretation was false.

The greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbours as you love yourself. We are commanded not to kill, so don’t go blaming God for people who disobey his commands.

And when George Bush said, God bless America as he bombed Iraq, this does not make it a holy war.

In our town the churches have opened up four houses for homeless people, they set up food banks, they do a lot of work helping vulnerable people. There are around two thousand passages in the Bible that talk about justice for the poor and oppressed.

It wouldn’t seem just to me though, if many of them have to spend eternity in hell, simply because their sacrifice wasn’t done in the right name.

A theologian is a person who has an opinion about God’s character. I has been said that theologians reveal more about their own character than they do about God. We have had a few years to think about justice, God has had an eternity. Did Jesus only die for Catholics?

 

[Noose001]

Abiogenesis is working towards an explanation. Abiogenesis can explain the origin of amino acids. Where is your evidence of any god creating amino acids?

Your religion does not explain the origin of life; it merely assumes it. Science is looking for an explanation, and have found some parts of the puzzle.

No such thing as working towards an explanation, you either explain or fail to explain.

The evidence for the creation of amino acid is the existence of amino acid; it wasn’t there but now it exists thus it has been created. Your naturalistic explanation for this creation or ‘your working toward’ just doesn’t make sense.

Is my religion the reason for your failure?

It was not trying to answer that question. Living organisms have a great many mechanisms for picking, sorting, changing and arranging molecules that non-living systems do not.

The question is, if nature has a way of sorting L-amino acids, why do we have R-amino acids?
‘picking, sorting, changing and arranging molecules’ shows purpose and design but above all, knowledge, not randomness.

Because nature makes both, as the Miller-Urey experiment showed. Was that really so difficult that you had to ask?

The presence of one means no life hence the OP, how did life start purely through natural unguided processes?
I guess you are still working towards thinking which means you haven’t started thinking.