How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

[Eric_Hyom]

Eric_Hyom:

If it took around 1800 incremental steps for the shape of the eye lens to evolve. How many incremental steps would it take for every single bone, ligament, tendon and muscle to evolve? Once the shape of each component has formed it then has to connect up to its neighbour.

They don’t form independently and then come together at the end. The system develops slowly and incrementally.

That is like saying God did it. It does not say how it could happen.

 

[Dan123]

That is like saying God did it. It does not say how it could happen.

It’s not, I’m trying to squash this idea that pieces of a system have to independently develop and then join up at the end, as if they’re aircraft parts made in multiple factories and assembled later.

 

[rossum]

That also applies to you. I have asked for the science to show how creation and abiogenesis could happen by natural causes.

Creation did not happen by “natural causes”. Creation is by divine cause, not natural cause. Please think more carefully about what you are asking.

We have some evidence for natural abiogenesis, as with purines and pyrimidines. We do not have enough evidence yet, but we are working on it. I am still awaiting the first of your evidence for the divine creation of amino acids. Science has had evidence of the natural formation of amino acids since 1952.

When you put all these together in a spine, you can see design.

And we all know that humans make mistakes. You need a reliable design detector, which means that you have to test that detector. I await your reference to the paper giving the results of the test of your detector.

 

[Freddy]

When you put all these together in a spine, you can see design.

I’m looking out at my garden. I see design everywhere. Now you’ll either have to come up with a method to differentiate between that which has been designed and that which has ocurred naturally or you have to accept that it’s all designed.

Do you?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I’m trying to squash this idea that pieces of a system have to independently develop and then join up at the end, as if they’re aircraft parts made in multiple factories and assembled later.

The skeletal system is far more complex than an aircraft and we know aircrafts have to be designed. The mechanics of our bodies are just a bunch of levers connected together for movement. There are many species with around 500 muscles, 200 bones, 500 ligaments and 1000 tendons. However it happened, you would have to incrementally construct each part before assembly, whether it is done singly, in pairs or any other combinations. We can make aircrafts, but we struggle to make mechanical replicas of our body.

Blind nature might have a few billion years to construct our bodies through incremental changes. But how could it succeed without guidance from God?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

We have some evidence for natural abiogenesis, as with purines and pyrimidines. We do not have enough evidence yet, but we are working on it. I am still awaiting the first of your evidence for the divine creation of amino acids. Science has had evidence of the natural formation of amino acids since 1952.

But this evidence is incomplete, it could be wrong, do all scientists agree? Or is the real answer we still don’t know.

So, you again have no evidence. You will find it difficult to win a science discussion with no evidence on your side. In science the default answer is “We don’t know” and it takes evidence to move science away from that answer.

 

[rossum]

But this evidence is incomplete, it could be wrong, do all scientists agree? Or is the real answer we still don’t know.

We have evidence that some parts of the process can happen naturally, hence it is reasonable to say that those parts of the process happened naturally, such as the natural origin of amino acids through chemical processes.

Your evidence for creation by a deity is even less complete.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Your evidence for creation by a deity is even less complete.

Our evidence for God is based on faith and trust.

We have evidence that some parts of the process can happen naturally, hence it is reasonable to say that those parts of the process happened naturally, such as the natural origin of amino acids through chemical processes.

Can you be certain that amino acids happened purely by a natural process. Is this a truth, or is it still work in progress?

 

[stoplooklisten]

Your evidence for creation by a deity is even less complete.

Part of the evidence is existence itself: Why is there something rather than nothing?

Part of the evidence is logic and reasoning: Why is there order rather than disorder in the physical laws and constants of physics and chemistry?

Part of the evidence is observed evolution itself:

• Why is there increasing order and complexity in the observable apparent evolution of biological creatures across the fossil layers?
• How is there such complexity in the genome of the single-celled amoeba?
• How did so many systems in living beings (circulatory, respiratory, visual, auditory, nervous, skeletal, reproductive, digestive, glandular, etc.) develop with extensive simultaneous coordination among multiple parts?
• Why is there such coordination among multiple systems in the natural systems observed in the ecology?
• What are the true causes and effects?
• How could such happen without a Designer and Creator?

Why is there a denial that Almighty God has revealed Himself not only in nature but by a series of prophets including Jesus Christ? Why is there a denial of the historicity of people and events including Jesus Christ and His Resurrection from the dead?

Why is there such a resistance to natural law and morality? Do we not already perceive metaphysical realities like wisdom vs. foolishness, right and wrong, the need for humility and repentance and love for God and neighbor?

Why is there a such a denial of (and resistance against) cosmologies that include the Creator?

 

[lelinator]

Why is there a such a denial of (and resistance against) cosmologies that include the Creator?

Because belief in God, is by necessity, a belief born out of ignorance.

That’s not meant to be an insult, it’s just the truth. God is the placeholder for the unknown.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Thou awakest us to delight in Thy praise; for Thou madest us for Thyself, and our heart is restless, until it repose in Thee. - The Confessions of Saint Augustine (b.354 d. 430), page 1

Human hearts find great delight in the contemplation of the Creator as revealed in nature, Scripture, grace and spirit. Human hearts are restless for God. The search for God is a noble and righteous pursuit.

 

[lelinator]

Human hearts find great delight in the contemplation of the Creator as revealed in nature, Scripture, grace and spirit. Human hearts are restless for God. The search for God is a noble and righteous pursuit.

Ah, once again you’ve used “God” as a placeholder. You could’ve simply used the word “Truth” instead. If you had said that the search for truth is a noble and righteous pursuit then I doubt that anyone would disagree with you.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Because belief in God, is by necessity, a belief born out of ignorance.

That’s not meant to be an insult, it’s just the truth. God is the placeholder for the unknown.

Existence without a cause is an illogical fantasy. There must be a God. Existence without God is a speculative fantasy. Rabbits don’t appear out of hats without a cause. Hats and magicians don’t appear without a cause.

God is the placeholder for the unknown.

That’s your declared doctrine. Are you not just creating your own system of belief?

 

[lelinator]

Existence without a cause is an illogical fantasy.

And yet you believe that God exists without a cause…are you calling God an illogical fantasy?

 

[rossum]

Can you be certain that amino acids happened purely by a natural process. Is this a truth, or is it still work in progress?

We have amino acids from 1952, see Miller-Urey. We have had many repetitions of that experiment since that date with varying conditions. Yes, this is as much a truth as the truth that water forms by natural processes.

The science of abiogenesis has amino acids. The theology of abiogenesis does not. Currently theology is losing.

You would do well to follow the line of Humani Generis: Natural process formed the human body and God directly formed the human soul. Trying to argue on the formation of the material body will only put you in a losing position. Science has a great deal of material evidence, which theology lacks in the material area.

 

[stoplooklisten]

And yet you believe that God exists without a cause…are you calling God an illogical fantasy?

We can have a series of regresses as in the cause of a cause of a cause. But, such a series cannot be infinite. Ultimately, God stands outside of the chain of such caused causes.

God is not a being or a creature. God is the cause of being and the cause of creatures and the cause of existence itself. God didn’t begin to exist. God always was and ever will be. Space-time had a beginning and the cause of the beginning was Almighty God Himself who exists outside of “space-time”.

 

[rossum]

Part of the evidence is existence itself: Why is there something rather than nothing?

There was always something, whether the multiverse, an oscillating universe or whatever. There are a number of cosmological hypotheses, none involving deities. There is currently insufficient evidence to pick between the various hypotheses.

 

[Noose001]

We have amino acids from 1952, see Miller-Urey. We have had many repetitions of that experiment since that date with varying conditions. Yes, this is as much a truth as the truth that water forms by natural processes.

You mean falsehoods.

The amino acids used in Biochemical processes are of certain chiral configuration which shows that non was a result of natural or random processes.
No experiments has reproduced these amino acids.

 

[lelinator]

We can have a series of regresses as in the cause of a cause of a cause. But, such a series cannot be infinite. Ultimately, God stands outside of the chain of such caused causes.

Again, you’ve used God as a placeholder, and that’s all that theology does…use God as a placeholder for the unknown.

 

[lelinator]

lelinator:

God is the placeholder for the unknown.

That’s your declared doctrine. Are you not just creating your own system of belief?

Absolutely correct. And in fact, your belief system and my belief system are both pursuing the exact same thing…the truth. But there’s one very important reason why my belief system is vastly superior to yours.

It’s because nobody ever blew up a laboratory, or killed busloads of women and children, because they believed that the Copenhagen interpretation was true, and the Many World’s Interpretation was false.