How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

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Eric_Hyom said:
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rossum:
You asked questions where there is a distinct lack of evidence. That does restrict answers to “may be”.
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Agreed, this thread should have died after a few posts.
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How about we all take 14 days off from posting on it and let it die a natural death…
 
Dan123 said:
If there was no space, what is it that was dark?
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Darkness doesn’t need space because it is nothing, but there was ‘time’ which means there was space also.
 
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Dark is how we describe an area devoid of light. There’s no “area” devoid of light before space. We can’t use everyday experiences and casual wording to describe such an alien state of being.
 
Dan123 said:
We can’t use everyday experiences and casual wording to describe such an alien state of being.
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Ok, so what do you suggest? Are you trying to say darkness started with the Big bang?
Dan123 said:
There’s no “area” devoid of light before space
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This statement specifically means there was light before space.
 
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Noose001 said:
Ok, so what do you suggest? Are you trying to say darkness started with the Big bang?
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I’m saying light is something that exists within spacetime and it would be strange to describe something as lacking a non-existent property. It would be like describing things prior to the big bang as ‘sugar-free’. Yes arguably there’s no sugar, but there’s no physical matter at all, so being sugar free isn’t a very good descriptor. I’m suggesting to be wary of drawing hard conclusions about something no human has any real concept of.
Noose001 said:
This statement specifically means there was light before space.
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It does not, but I’ll certainly agree phrasing such alien concepts clearly can be tough. I’ll work on a better phrasing or analogy.
 
Dan123 said:
I’m saying light is something that exists within spacetime and it would be strange to describe something as lacking a non-existent property. It would be like describing things prior to the big bang as ‘sugar-free’. Yes arguably there’s no sugar, but there’s no physical matter at all, so being sugar free isn’t a very good descriptor. I’m suggesting to be wary of drawing hard conclusions about something no human has any real concept of.
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And so, it was dark before the big bang, what’s so difficult about this simple fact.

All i’m saying, there was nothing before the big bang. Disputing this statement means there was something before the big bang. Saying we don’t know means darkness started with the big bang whereas we all know darkness doesn’t begin/start because it is nothing.

Choose.
 
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Noose001 said:
And so, it was dark before the big bang, what’s so difficult about this simple fact.
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The difficulty is that ‘dark’ doesn’t necessarily make sense as an adjective to describe a state of existence in which there is no light. It’s like describing a not yet conceived child as ‘skinny’, since as they don’t exist they can’t be fat.
Noose001 said:
All i’m saying, there was nothing before the big bang. Disputing this statement means there was something before the big bang.
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How do you know what existed before the big bang?
 
Dan123 said:
The difficulty is that ‘dark’ doesn’t necessarily make sense as an adjective to describe a state of existence in which there is no light. It’s like describing a not yet conceived child as ‘skinny’, since as they don’t exist they can’t be fat.
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  1. Like you have said, darkness is the absence of visible light. It is the only condition that describes the absence of light, we can even call it ‘absence of light’. So it is true that before light began, the conditions were ‘absence of light’
  2. Visible light can also be described as the condition in which darkness is overcome. So if light started it simply means darkness was overcome.
  3. Darkness has to be there for light to start, if there’s no darkness then light can not start because the condition that can be described as the ‘no darkness’ is actually light itself. This makes darkness a thing of importance rather than nothing.
Dan123 said:
How do you know what existed before the big bang?
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Aah, you just understand these things, how could you not know is a more pressing question.
 
Noose001 said:
Like you have said, darkness is the absence of visible light. It is the only condition that describes the absence of light, we can even call it ‘absence of light’. So it is true that before light began, the conditions were ‘absence of light’
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Except you’re stretching a definition of something we experience inside the universe to try and encompass things entirely outside space time. You can’t discuss a scenario where the rules of physics don’t necessarily apply and then apply common every day definitions to them. You want the literal creation of the universe to follow the same laws that you experience every day but you have zero reason to think they should other than it fits into the way you’re used to thinking about things which just seems like an extremely narrow view and unlikely to reveal anything meaningful about such things.
Noose001 said:
Aah, you just understand these things, how could you not know is a more pressing question.
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In science it’s an unanswered and quite possibly unanswerable question. If you have the answer publish a paper.
 
Dan123 said:
Except you’re stretching a definition of something we experience inside the universe to try and encompass things entirely outside space time. You can’t discuss a scenario where the rules of physics don’t necessarily apply and then apply common every day definitions to them. You want the literal creation of the universe to follow the same laws that you experience every day but you have zero reason to think they should other than it fits into the way you’re used to thinking about things which just seems like an extremely narrow view and unlikely to reveal anything meaningful about such things.
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If the laws of physics do not apply to the beginning, where can we seek answers, faith?!

Laws of physics or not, immaterial things do not begin to exist.

You need to polish your theories.
 
Noose001 said:
If the laws of physics do not apply to the beginning, where can we seek answers, faith?!
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Math, science, reason, deduction, and accepting there are things we don’t know and may never know. Which I find more valuable than assuming things must always work how they work for us right now at this point in time.
Noose001 said:
Laws of physics or not, immaterial things do not begin to exist.
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Sort of depends on what you consider immaterial.
 
Dan123 said:
Math, science, reason, deduction, and accepting there are things we don’t know and may never know. Which I find more valuable than assuming things must always work how they work for us right now at this point in time.
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What are you trying to say, your reason is so far unreasonable.
  1. Did the universe begin to exist and therefore all its properties as we know them?
  2. Did light begin to exist as one of the properties of this universe?
  3. Did darkness begin to exist as one of the properties of this universe?
 
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Noose001 said:
i can, without any controversy or fear, tell the conditions before the universe were dark, very dark and silent, very silent plus many other things, how could it not be?
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Really? Who do you know? You don’t sound so sure. Any so-called knowledge of conditions before the beginning are speculative (and imaginary). Unless of course, you find some information in the revelation of God’s Word.
 
Noose001 said:
Do you think God was ignorant before wisdom was created?
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No, don’t get too excited (or become blasphemous). I was just providing an English translation of Sirach 1:4. It needs context. It needs proper interpretation. Perhaps, you may want to look up a good Catholic homily or sermon on the topic of wisdom and its origins. :-).

The longer and more well-known Bible passage on the origins of Wisdom is Proverbs 8. In particular, you may want to see the section beginning at v. 22 for its discourse on the relationship between wisdom and creation. Q. Does wisdom show in geology, chemistry, physics, biology, human physiology and anatomy? I would say “Yes”.

Some related commentary goes like this:
§ m 22–31 Wisdom in the Creation and Ordering of the Universe—Here the eulogy of Wisdom touches the sublime. God himself made use of Wisdom as a ‘master-workman’ in the construction of the marvellous universe, as well as in the establishment of the wondrous order that rules it. The picture is similar to that of 3:19–20, but is more detailed and striking. Wisdom is presented as a concrete being, living and operating at the side of God. It is not, however, a creature, but a divine being, for it existed before the creation of anything (22–26), and concurred in the creation of all things (27–31). On the one hand, it is intrinsic to God, his essential Wisdom; on the other, it is represented as something distinct from God and coming from him by way of generation (24–25). It is not yet a distinctly defined personality, but it is so vividly personified that from this description to the distinction of more than one person in God was only a step. That step was manifest when the divine Wisdom was made incarnate in Christ Jesus. See § 316b.

§ n 22–26. Wisdom was with God at the beginning of creation. 22a. ‘possessed’: the Heb. word qānāh means ‘to acquire’ without defining the method of acquisition. In Gen 14:19, 22, it is by ‘creation’; here, however, it is by ‘generation’ (cf. 24 where Wisdom is portrayed as the possession of God by the title of ‘generation’, not ‘creation’). Perhaps the most satisfactory rendering of qānānî is ‘begat me’. For the meaning ‘possessed’, cf. Prov 1:5; 4:5, 7; 15:32; 16:16; Deut 32:6; Pss 74:2 (H); 139:13 (H); Is 1:3. 22b. ‘in the beginning’: ‘(as) the beginning’ or ‘principle’ of the divine activity, either because Wisdom was conceived before all divine works in regard of creatures, or because she concurred in the creation of everything (30). Wisdom was before the universe was made; she is placed outside the works of creation. 24. ‘When there were no depths, I was born, when there were no fountains rich in waters’

Dyson, R. A. (1953). Proverbs. In B. Orchard & E. F. Sutcliffe (Eds.), A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (p. 479). Toronto; New York; Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson.
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Wisdom is intrinsic to God. It is part of His essential nature.
 
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