How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

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Freddy:
None in isolation. Hence the ‘rinse and repeat’. Keep changing things and you’ll get a different species eventually. What do you think could prevent it?
I guess this means, no answer.
It was an answer. A minor change in the genetic code which will enable someone to run faster has zero effect on reproduction. Well, except that the person may live longer to actually reproduce.

But keep changing the code and you’ll eventually get another species. So what do you think will stop that happening?
 
A new species arises when it is established that they can’t exchange genetic material with the parent species. It means the specific reproductive genetic markers have changed in a manner that they are no longer recognized by those of the parent species.

How does having long legs (beneficial mutation) have an effect on these genetic markers?
It doesn’t, it’s one mutation. Honestly these evolution debates go all over the place. Usually you’ll have some folks saying “mutation occurs, no one debates that” and 2 lines later another person arguing against evolution saying “mutations don’t occur” so I’m stepping back to basics I guess. You said yourself there’s no beneficial mutations so what use is it to worry about speciation if you’re stuck on every mutation being a death sentence for a species?

And even that definition doesn’t work because we already discussed jungle corn snakes. They aren’t the same species they aren’t even the same genus, but they can exchange genetic information.
 
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It was an answer. A minor change in the genetic code which will enable someone to run faster has zero effect on reproduction. Well, except that the person may live longer to actually reproduce.
Minor changes or major changes have no effect on genetic reproduction markers and identifiers.
But keep changing the code and you’ll eventually get another species. So what do you think will stop that happening?
Such statements have no basis because physical changes have no connection with species identifiers.
 
Such statements have no basis because physical changes have no connection with species identifiers.
I have no idea what that means. Unless you mean that, for example, a fish that evolves lungs and an ability to walk on dry land cannot be a different species from one that can only survive in water. That makes no sense at all.
 
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It doesn’t, it’s one mutation. Honestly these evolution debates go all over the place. Usually you’ll have some folks saying “mutation occurs, no one debates that” and 2 lines later another person arguing against evolution saying “mutations don’t occur” so I’m stepping back to basics I guess. You said yourself there’s no beneficial mutations so what use is it to worry about speciation if you’re stuck on every mutation being a death sentence for a species?
There’s no beneficial mutation(s), that’s what i said. Mutation happens to genes, genes express proteins, proteins obtain the functionality from their structure therefore mutations only affect the structure of the protein. It might need several mutations, probably thousands for the effect to be seen in the physical trait. For this reason, we don’t actually have beneficial mutations; mutations have to be looked as individual mutations.
It doesn’t, it’s one mutation.
This is not what evolution proposes because evolution also explains appearance of structures and body plans.
 
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I have no idea what that means. Unless you mean that, for example, a fish that evolves lungs and an ability to walk on dry land cannot be a different species from one that can only survive in water. That makes no sense at all.
If you take chimpanzee’s sperms and try to fertilize a human ovum, it won’t produce a zygote successfully. What actually prevents this from happening is molecular markers and identifiers for each species.
Now, when we talk about speciation, you need to focus your evidence on the genetics of these molecular markers and identifiers and minimize the talk on physical traits, advantages and environment, they have no bearing on these markers.
 
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However once we started industrializing we began throwing soot into the air from coal plants and factories, the soot coated areas around these industrial facilities and suddenly the black winged version became the norm,
You have given a good explanation as to how the environment can influence colour change.

Starting from abiogenesis, what environmental factors would influence the shape of an eye lens? From abiogenesis what factors would influence bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles to form the shapes they have?
 
Isn’t it an advantage to run faster, fly further, see better?
When mankind sets these goals, we use intelligent design to go faster, further and have better vision. Blind nature has no goals, so starting from abiogenesis, what influenced these mutations to happen in the first place?.
 
If you believe in God then He must have had some (name removed by moderator)ut into the evolutionary process.
Granted, but God is more important than evolution to me.
What all the other posts have been doing since is arguing about the mechanics of evolution. Which quite a few people in this thread seem not to understand.
Of course it is an advantage to go faster, further and see better, I don’t think anyone is questioning this aspect of evolution. The debate is mostly about; did this happen by a natural process without god, or did it need God to guide it?

If it needed God to guide the process, then I don’t believe it happened as the ToE claims.

The evidence is very fuzzy, and in truth all we are left with are arguments depending on our beliefs.
 
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Freddy:
Isn’t it an advantage to run faster, fly further, see better?
When mankind sets these goals, we use intelligent design to go faster, further and have better vision. Blind nature has no goals, so starting from abiogenesis, what influenced these mutations to happen in the first place?.
There was no intelligence involved in my son being a faster runner. And none involved in my daughter being slightly slower. All accidents of nature.

If the environment dictates that faster runners will survive more frequently then he’s got an advantage. But she’s got better eyesight. So running faster might not be an advantage but better eyesight might.

No intelligence required.
 
… in truth all we are left with are arguments depending on our beliefs.
That’s what I’ve been saying. If you believe in God then He must have been involved. You can pick creationism if you read the bible as a fundamentalist. Or select evolution if you understand the process.

Your call.
 
Starting from abiogenesis, what environmental factors would influence the shape of an eye lens?
Of course it is an advantage to go faster, further and see better
You answered your own question. Any environment in which seeing, or seeing better, provides a survival advantage. I’m not sure I could name an environment in which better sight wouldn’t reasonably be expected to provide a benefit. Possible cave dwelling creatures that live in absolute darkness.
 
Possible cave dwelling creatures that live in absolute darkness.
Yes, cave fish are often blind, having lost the genes for eyes. Moles, and mole-rats, also live mainly underground are a very poorly sighted.
 
No intelligence required.
But, but… how can we deny “intelligent design”? It is visible to all of us. Just look at our ears, they point forward and thus their back side presents a great tool to hold our anti-virus mask! Just imagine, if our ears would be oriented backwards, the masks would simply slide off, and we would be even more exposed to the virus!

And consider the Puddle by Douglas Adams:
“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.’”
 
I’m amazed at how most everyone has just the right amount of skin to cover their body. Coincidence? I think not!
And our legs. They are precisely long enough to reach the ground; not too long and not too short. Exactly the correct length. Obviously intelligent design!
 
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Freddy:
I’m amazed at how most everyone has just the right amount of skin to cover their body. Coincidence? I think not!
And our legs. They are precisely long enough to reach the ground; not too long and not too short. Exactly the correct length. Obviously intelligent design!
And the average number of legs is so close to the required two it’s hardly credible.
 
There was always something, whether the multiverse, an oscillating universe or whatever.
Were you always there? How can you make such a doctrine? Are you trying to be the Pope? Are you trying to be God? Isn’t time a created thing? Doesn’t God exist out of time?
 
Were you always there? How can you make such a doctrine? Are you trying to be the Pope? Are you trying to be God? Isn’t time a created thing? Doesn’t God exist out of time?
Yes I was there in a previous lifetime, though I can no longer remember it. I am trying to be a Bodhisattva, not the Pope.
 
Yes I was there in a previous lifetime, though I can no longer remember it. I am trying to be a Bodhisattva, not the Pope.
Before the Triune Almighty God of Holiness, Justice, Love and Mercy created space-time, there was no place to have a previous lifetime.

God bless you, rossum. You certainly are a veteran of many forum discussions. Thank you for participating as long and as well as you have done.
 
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