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artist3189
Guest
Mannyfit’s last three quotes were as good as it gets:thumbsup:
- Status
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artist3189
Guest
Hi, benaiah… I think you may have yourself a little confused here, but I’ll only bother you with one question about your quote, you say, quote… " *but I am cautious in assuming that all of the Christian *Churches were represented at these councils."… Which 'other’ Christian Church’s are you referring too? I’m just curious, thanks!
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benaiah
Guest
Hello Artist,
The other Christian churches that most likely were given the title “heretic” or dissentors (i.e. Novatianists, Donatists, etc.), any group that may have disagreed on topics such as infant baptism (baptismal regeneration), dipping vs. immersion, prayers to the dead, to name a few. I don’t have the art of cutting and pasting like so many seem to have here, nor do I care to gain that “skill”, but even if I did, and could paste 10 different non-Catholic history book’s contents on this thread, why would I? That’s not the point of my initial post. I did not come here to debate Church history with Catholics, but to seek information (i.e. Catholic BOOKS) to better understand the Catholic’s veiw of Church History. In my library I have MANY books on Church History, such as:
Acts and Monuments of the Martyrs by John Foxe (1674)
Baptist History by J.M. Cramp (1852)
Baptists Not Protestants by C.C. Carroll
The Character of the Anabaptists by John Christian (1922)
A Concise History of the Baptists by G.H. Orchard (1855)
Did They Dip: An Examination of the Practice of Baptism before 1641 (1896) by John Christian
The Divine Right of Infant Baptism Examined and Disproved by John Gill
Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont & the Albigenses by Peter Allix (1690)
Evils of Infant Baptism by R.B.C. Howell (1852)
General History of the Baptist Denomination in America and Elsewhere by David Benedict (1813)
The Glorious History of the English Bible by Alexander McClure (1850)
A History of Ancient Christians by Jean Paul Perrin (1846)
History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses by George Faber (1838)
A History of the Baptists by John Christian (1922)
A History of the Baptists by Thomas Armitage (1890)
A History of the Christian Church by William Jones (1812)
History of the Donatists by David Benedict (1875)
History of the English Baptists by Joseph Ivimey (1811)
History of the English General Baptists by Adam Taylor (1818)
History of the Inquisition by Andrew Miller (c. 1881)
History of the Papacy by J.A. Wylie (1888)
History of Protestantism by J.A. Wylie (1899)
A History of the Waldenses by J.A. Wylie (1860)
Is There a Visible Succession of Baptist Churches? by Thomas Armitage (1890)
Miller’s Church History by Andrew Miller (c. 1881)
Protestant Persecution of Baptists in America by Joseph Banvard
Some Remarks on the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont by Peter Allix (1690)
Some Remarks on the Ecclesiastical History of the Albigenses by Peter Allix (1690)
The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop
Waldensian History by J.A. Wylie (1860)
Were the Waldensians Baptists or Pedo-baptists? by John L. Waller (1849)
Needless to say, none of the above volumes would be considered Pro-Catholic. So once again, the point of this post was to aquire titles of Church history books from a Catholic’s perspective, not to engage in debate on who is right and who is wrong about Church History. As stated earlier, some on this post have been helpful and I have already ordered 3 books recommended by posters. To them I say Thank you. God Bless,
Benaiah
The other Christian churches that most likely were given the title “heretic” or dissentors (i.e. Novatianists, Donatists, etc.), any group that may have disagreed on topics such as infant baptism (baptismal regeneration), dipping vs. immersion, prayers to the dead, to name a few. I don’t have the art of cutting and pasting like so many seem to have here, nor do I care to gain that “skill”, but even if I did, and could paste 10 different non-Catholic history book’s contents on this thread, why would I? That’s not the point of my initial post. I did not come here to debate Church history with Catholics, but to seek information (i.e. Catholic BOOKS) to better understand the Catholic’s veiw of Church History. In my library I have MANY books on Church History, such as:
Acts and Monuments of the Martyrs by John Foxe (1674)
Baptist History by J.M. Cramp (1852)
Baptists Not Protestants by C.C. Carroll
The Character of the Anabaptists by John Christian (1922)
A Concise History of the Baptists by G.H. Orchard (1855)
Did They Dip: An Examination of the Practice of Baptism before 1641 (1896) by John Christian
The Divine Right of Infant Baptism Examined and Disproved by John Gill
Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont & the Albigenses by Peter Allix (1690)
Evils of Infant Baptism by R.B.C. Howell (1852)
General History of the Baptist Denomination in America and Elsewhere by David Benedict (1813)
The Glorious History of the English Bible by Alexander McClure (1850)
A History of Ancient Christians by Jean Paul Perrin (1846)
History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses by George Faber (1838)
A History of the Baptists by John Christian (1922)
A History of the Baptists by Thomas Armitage (1890)
A History of the Christian Church by William Jones (1812)
History of the Donatists by David Benedict (1875)
History of the English Baptists by Joseph Ivimey (1811)
History of the English General Baptists by Adam Taylor (1818)
History of the Inquisition by Andrew Miller (c. 1881)
History of the Papacy by J.A. Wylie (1888)
History of Protestantism by J.A. Wylie (1899)
A History of the Waldenses by J.A. Wylie (1860)
Is There a Visible Succession of Baptist Churches? by Thomas Armitage (1890)
Miller’s Church History by Andrew Miller (c. 1881)
Protestant Persecution of Baptists in America by Joseph Banvard
Some Remarks on the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont by Peter Allix (1690)
Some Remarks on the Ecclesiastical History of the Albigenses by Peter Allix (1690)
The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop
Waldensian History by J.A. Wylie (1860)
Were the Waldensians Baptists or Pedo-baptists? by John L. Waller (1849)
Needless to say, none of the above volumes would be considered Pro-Catholic. So once again, the point of this post was to aquire titles of Church history books from a Catholic’s perspective, not to engage in debate on who is right and who is wrong about Church History. As stated earlier, some on this post have been helpful and I have already ordered 3 books recommended by posters. To them I say Thank you. God Bless,
Benaiah
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joshua_b
Guest
Once again, welcome to the forums.
I don’t know of any books that contain all of their writings (maybe “The Faith of the EArly FAthers”), but have you ever studied the writings of Polycarp, Iranaeus of Lyons, Tertullian, and Justin Martyr ? I have suggested to many to study the history and writings of these men.
I don’t know of any books that contain all of their writings (maybe “The Faith of the EArly FAthers”), but have you ever studied the writings of Polycarp, Iranaeus of Lyons, Tertullian, and Justin Martyr ? I have suggested to many to study the history and writings of these men.
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benaiah
Guest
Hello Joshua-B,
I have a copy of Polycarp’s epistle to the Phillipians in greek, if that counts
. I have read about all of them from various source books (i.e. History, manuscript evidence, etc.), but I must confess, I have not had access to their individual works to read. Thanks for writing. I will try to look for their works more closely. God Bless,
Benaiah
I have a copy of Polycarp’s epistle to the Phillipians in greek, if that counts
. I have read about all of them from various source books (i.e. History, manuscript evidence, etc.), but I must confess, I have not had access to their individual works to read. Thanks for writing. I will try to look for their works more closely. God Bless,Benaiah
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artist3189
Guest
Thanks for the answer. Keep in mind, when you speak of ‘other Christians’ from the early era, other than the Arian’s, who had a wide following for quite a while, all other groups were a minority. But not all of their ideas where just thrown out, especially in the first century. Reading early letters shows how much ‘discussion’ actually went on. But many of the basic theological ‘truths’, such as celebrating the Eucharist and what is truly ‘IS’ were understood and practiced as directly passed on from the teaching of the Apostles. And surely the differences in the formation of early theology pales in comparison to ‘Post Luther’ theologies which has elevated the meaning of ‘interpretation’ to new heights. Exactly the opposite of what the early Christians strove to achieve. You may want to look into Ignatius Press as a good source for material. And keep in mind the reason many of the books mentioned above exist for the very reason to try PROVE Post Reformation Protestant views and weaken long held Catholic ones. Some Baptists groups have tried long and hard to prove a Apostolic Succession or early Church links and they have taken many liberties with history, as well as deliberately ignore facts. But like you say, debate on this, could take up pages and pages of post space. We can only type so much. Try Ignatius Press, they have Cd’s on all Early Church Fathers as well as commentaries. Also try Tan Publishing might have some things of interest to you, good luck.Hello Joshua-B,
I have a copy of Polycarp’s epistle to the Phillipians in greek, if that counts
Benaiah
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MGEISING
Guest
Hi Benaiah:I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. I thought this would be a great forum to ask this question on. I have asked this question on Baptist forums and only get responses that I have already heard. I feel this is a good forum to help me understand the Catholic position. I would appreciate all the help you could give me. I thought this was the right place to post this since I’m not a member of the Catholic Church. Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
I would be interested in the response you get from your Bapists brothers and sisters … could you share?
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
Hello. Another Baptist convert here.
I have a pdf copy of the book Where We Got the Bible…Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry G. Graham if you would like a copy I can email it to you. Just let me know.
M
mercygate
Guest
Don’t think in terms of pro- or anti-Catholic. Be like Sergeant Friday on the old Dragnet show: “Just the facts.” The facts shout louder than anything.Thank you Bishopite,
So far I have found and ordered William A. Jurgens 3 vol. set on “the Faith of the early Fathers”, Yves Congar’s “The Meaning of Tradition”, and Henry G. Graham’s “Where we got the Bible”. Posting here has been very helpful. I have heard someone mention a set of books called “History of the Christian Church” by Philip Schaff. I didn’t know if these are pro-Catholic or anti-Catholic. Does anyone know if Philip Schaff was Catholic? I’m looking for Church history books that support the Catholic view of Church history. Any info would be appreciated
Benaiah
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benaiah
Guest
Hello Artist,
Thanks for responding," Try Ignatius Press, they have Cd’s on all Early Church Fathers as well as commentaries. Also try Tan Publishing might have some things of interest to you, good luck." sounds good. Do they have a web site? God bless,
Benaiah
Thanks for responding," Try Ignatius Press, they have Cd’s on all Early Church Fathers as well as commentaries. Also try Tan Publishing might have some things of interest to you, good luck." sounds good. Do they have a web site? God bless,
Benaiah
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E.E.N.S
Guest
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artist3189
Guest
www.ignatius.com www.tanbooks.com
‘Tan’ is a little more in the "Traditional Catholic’ bent, but a good reliable source. ‘Ignatius Press’ has great mailings with nice offerings, so get on the list. Have fun!
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benaiah
Guest
Hello E.E.N.S.,
“I have a pdf copy of the book Where We Got the Bible…Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry G. Graham if you would like a copy I can email it to you. Just let me know.” Thank you so much, but I already ordered it from Amazon.com. Also thanks for the web sites, God bless,
Benaiah
“I have a pdf copy of the book Where We Got the Bible…Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry G. Graham if you would like a copy I can email it to you. Just let me know.” Thank you so much, but I already ordered it from Amazon.com. Also thanks for the web sites, God bless,
Benaiah
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
No problem. Good luck with your studies!
B
benaiah
Guest
Hello MGEISING,
Quote:
Originally Posted by benaiah
I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. I thought this would be a great forum to ask this question on. I have asked this question on Baptist forums and only get responses that I have already heard. I feel this is a good forum to help me understand the Catholic position. I would appreciate all the help you could give me. I thought this was the right place to post this since I’m not a member of the Catholic Church . Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
Hi Benaiah:
I would be interested in the response you get from your Bapists brothers and sisters … could you share?
I’m not exactly sure as to what response you are looking for, but I’ll throw a few things out:
1.) Most of the Baptist web sites give a Baptist perspective of Church History (as hard as this might be for some Catholics to believe–NOT everyone reads, interprets, veiws, or believes the same way as Catholics, or we would ALL be Catholic). Now with that said, the information was redundant, since I own and have read (or at least examined) many of the source books. To just stop here would be off balance and extremely one-sided. Since I know many Intelligent and well educated Catholics that are kind, generous, and over-all wonderful people, I wanted (as a personal choice) to try to see their point of veiw. Unfortunately, most did not know of many Church history books to recommend. Thus,why I posted here.
2.) As to what my Baptist brothers & sisters think or how they respond, well, since I’m doing this for my own personal growth, I have not shared this with many, for several reseaons. To begin with, many Baptists that I know either:
a.) could care less about what Catholics believe (you are veiwed as a Cult - period).
b.) or they are seminary trained and believe Fundamental Baptist History as taught to them at their respective schools.
c.) or find it somewhat interesting/amusing that I would waste my time doing this.
( I want to point out, that not all Baptists think this way, but those that I am associated with seem to be.)
In closing, please don’t view all Baptists as the same. This posting was done by me as a personal choice to help me understand better. I have never liked one-sided or un-balanced views in anything (it’s similar to censorship
). God Bless,
Benaiah
Quote:
Originally Posted by benaiah
I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. I thought this would be a great forum to ask this question on. I have asked this question on Baptist forums and only get responses that I have already heard. I feel this is a good forum to help me understand the Catholic position. I would appreciate all the help you could give me. I thought this was the right place to post this since I’m not a member of the Catholic Church . Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
Hi Benaiah:
I would be interested in the response you get from your Bapists brothers and sisters … could you share?
I’m not exactly sure as to what response you are looking for, but I’ll throw a few things out:
1.) Most of the Baptist web sites give a Baptist perspective of Church History (as hard as this might be for some Catholics to believe–NOT everyone reads, interprets, veiws, or believes the same way as Catholics, or we would ALL be Catholic). Now with that said, the information was redundant, since I own and have read (or at least examined) many of the source books. To just stop here would be off balance and extremely one-sided. Since I know many Intelligent and well educated Catholics that are kind, generous, and over-all wonderful people, I wanted (as a personal choice) to try to see their point of veiw. Unfortunately, most did not know of many Church history books to recommend. Thus,why I posted here.
2.) As to what my Baptist brothers & sisters think or how they respond, well, since I’m doing this for my own personal growth, I have not shared this with many, for several reseaons. To begin with, many Baptists that I know either:
a.) could care less about what Catholics believe (you are veiwed as a Cult - period).
b.) or they are seminary trained and believe Fundamental Baptist History as taught to them at their respective schools.
c.) or find it somewhat interesting/amusing that I would waste my time doing this.
( I want to point out, that not all Baptists think this way, but those that I am associated with seem to be.)
In closing, please don’t view all Baptists as the same. This posting was done by me as a personal choice to help me understand better. I have never liked one-sided or un-balanced views in anything (it’s similar to censorship
). God Bless,Benaiah
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
I just thought of a book that I really enjoyed that you might like to read as well, it’s entitled The Spirit of Catholicism by Karl Adams.Hello MGEISING,
Quote:
Originally Posted by benaiah
I am a Baptist and live around and work with alot of Catholics. Most all of the Catholics I have talked with say my Bible came from the Catholic Church, but cannot seem to give me historical details or titles of books that I could explore. I thought this would be a great forum to ask this question on. I have asked this question on Baptist forums and only get responses that I have already heard. I feel this is a good forum to help me understand the Catholic position. I would appreciate all the help you could give me. I thought this was the right place to post this since I’m not a member of the Catholic Church . Thank you and God Bless,
Benaiah
Hi Benaiah:
I would be interested in the response you get from your Bapists brothers and sisters … could you share?
I’m not exactly sure as to what response you are looking for, but I’ll throw a few things out:
1.) Most of the Baptist web sites give a Baptist perspective of Church History (as hard as this might be for some Catholics to believe–NOT everyone reads, interprets, veiws, or believes the same way as Catholics, or we would ALL be Catholic). Now with that said, the information was redundant, since I own and have read (or at least examined) many of the source books. To just stop here would be off balance and extremely one-sided. Since I know many Intelligent and well educated Catholics that are kind, generous, and over-all wonderful people, I wanted (as a personal choice) to try to see their point of veiw. Unfortunately, most did not know of many Church history books to recommend. Thus,why I posted here.
2.) As to what my Baptist brothers & sisters think or how they respond, well, since I’m doing this for my own personal growth, I have not shared this with many, for several reseaons. To begin with, many Baptists that I know either:
a.) could care less about what Catholics believe (you are veiwed as a Cult - period).
b.) or they are seminary trained and believe Fundamental Baptist History as taught to them at their respective schools.
c.) or find it somewhat interesting/amusing that I would waste my time doing this.
( I want to point out, that not all Baptists think this way, but those that I am associated with seem to be.)
In closing, please don’t view all Baptists as the same. This posting was done by me as a personal choice to help me understand better. I have never liked one-sided or un-balanced views in anything (it’s similar to censorship
Benaiah
A
artist3189
Guest
One suggestion is to really read St’s Augustine and Aquinas and THEIR IDEA of who and what the Church was at that time and balance it off the Baptist ‘perspective’ of church history. There is no doubt about the Saints position on this, and it is hard to reconcile it any other way without discounting it. Saint Augustine is crystal clear, frank and unwavering and is not in need of the ‘interpreting of his meaning’ or ‘viewpoint’. The problem with trying to see the early Church as anything other than "Catholic’ is that, taken in full context, all the way to the Reformation, with *all sources *understood in relation to the Apostles and each other, as a Spiritual and historical progression, with the Roman Church asserting authority from the first century, any other conclusion is really a denial of the facts, a refusal of intellect, a strong willed refusal to acknowledge the truth. The fact is, we here, didn’t’ make up all this history, we didn’t write it, or live it, or record it, we weren’t’t at the Councils, we didn’t debate the heretics, we didn’t go through the Codification of the Bible. The Catholic Chuch did. If Baptist from a few hundred years ago choose to have a ‘different persecutive’, that’s living in willful denial. But, no one can be forced to accept something they have strong doubts about. My experience is, the best Catholics are converts, people who are relentless for the truth.Hello MGEISING,
Quote:
Originally Posted by benaiah
I 1.) Most of the Baptist web sites give a Baptist perspective of Church History (as hard as this might be for some Catholics to believe–NOT everyone reads, interprets, veiws, or believes the same way as Catholics, or we would ALL be Catholic). Now with that said, the information was redundant, since I own and have read (or at least examined) many of the source books. To just stop here would be off balance and extremely one-sided. Since I know many Intelligent and well educated Catholics that are kind, generous, and over-all wonderful people, I wanted (as a personal choice) to try to see their point of veiw. Unfortunately, most did not know of many Church history books to recommend. Thus,why I posted here.
In closing, please don’t view all Baptists as the same. This posting was done by me as a personal choice to help me understand better. I have never liked one-sided or un-balanced views in anything (it’s similar to censorship
Benaiah
B
benaiah
Guest
Hello Artist,
J
jmcrae
Guest
This is such an excellent attitude to have!! I am sure you will do very well with this study.This posting was done by me as a personal choice to help me understand better. I have never liked one-sided or un-balanced views in anything (it’s similar to censorship
Benaiah
By the way, it would be a good idea to wait until you have Faith of the Early Fathers, and see what is already in there, before ordering separate books from that time period, so as to avoid duplication.
B
benaiah
Guest
Continued:
Also note that the well-respected Baptist apologist, J. M Carroll, whose book The Trail of Blood has been printed continuously since it was copyrighted in 1931, and whose numbers now reach well into the millions, says simply that it is “The History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ, Their Founder, to the Present Day”.
In 1912, D. B. Ray authored the coveted treasure, Baptist Succession, a Handbook of Baptist History and in the preface, Dr. Ray wrote, “Baptists have, with one voice denied any connection with the Roman apostasy, and claimed their origin, as a church, from Jesus Christ and the apostles”.
David Benedict, pastor of the Baptist church in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, wrote his classic “A General History of the Baptist Denomination” in 1813. All throughout the over 1200 pages of his monumental work, Mr. Benedict asserts that the Baptist denomination of his day was most assuredly the same as the church started by Jesus Christ Himself while He was on earth. He is most emphatic to state that the original church was a Baptist church.
Another venerable author, the Englishman William Jones, wrote The History of the Christian Church in 1812 and stated flatly, “the Waldenses were Baptists”. These ancient people and their churches existed from the early 1300’s to the beginning of the eighteenth century.
Yet another author, Charles B. Stovall, in his book, Baptist History and Succession, says, “It will be seen that the Baptists claim the high antiquity of the commencement of the Christian church. They can trace a succession of those who have believed the same doctrine and administered the same ordinances directly, up to the Apostolic Age.”
M. M. Munger, in his book, “Baptist Churches From Jerusalem to North America”, wrote, “The intention of this little work is to show that from the time of Christ, beginning while He was on earth, the church of Christ has not failed to exist down to this present year of 1926. We have chosen this line of history as being the most simple and direct; Jerusalem, Rome, Britain (now Wales), to the North American colonies. Baptist church perpetuity is a proven fact.”
And, of course, the testimony of the venerable G. H. Orchard, the great English Baptist wrote prior to 1855, "A Concise History of Baptists from the time of Christ their Founder to the 18th Century. "
Perhaps W. A. Jarrel said it best when he wrote in his book, Baptist Church Perpetuity or History in 1894, “the Baptist movement in history has always been back to the New Testament … then it was about 150 A.D. that the first Baptist protest was raised by the Montanists”.
While I am not sure it would be profitable to continue to quote Baptist author after Baptist author, my intention has been to show that all credible Baptist historians and theologians have both believed and taught that there is a direct link from the days of Christ and His apostles to the Baptist church of today.
Though called by other names, true Baptists subscribe to the idea that originally all churches were Baptist churches. Baptists who deny this historical position and indisputable fact are of modern origin and thought. Certainly they do not reflect the doctrine of church (Baptist) perpetuity as was so universally believed among Baptists of previous generations.
I however, to further solidify the premise that the acceptance of this doctrine was the majority opinion that prevailed in Baptist churches until recent times, we must add that other well known Baptists also adhered tenaciously to this belief. Such great men as Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Pastor of the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle in London), Jesse Mercer (for whom Mercer University is named), Francis Wayland (longtime Baptist pastor in New York state), J. M. Pendleton (former Professor of Theology at Union University in Murfreesborough, Tennessee), B. H. Carroll (former Pastor of the First Baptist Church in Waco, Texas and associate editor of The Texas Baptist), R. E. B. Baylor (Member of Congress from Alabama, Texas Supreme Court Justice and namesake of Baylor University) and W. A. Criswell (former pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas). These, along with countless scores of others, have been faithful to the end to proclaim the “tenets” of our faith and the glorious history of the Baptist church. Although basically passed from church to church, this belief was argued vehemently as early as 1640 when William Kiffin, who for sixty-one years (1640-1701) pastored the Baptist church in Devonshire Square in London and whose granddaughter married the grandson of Oliver Cromwell, wrote an essay defending the Baptist position of exclusion at the Lord’s Table (Communion).
To be Continued…Benaiah
Also note that the well-respected Baptist apologist, J. M Carroll, whose book The Trail of Blood has been printed continuously since it was copyrighted in 1931, and whose numbers now reach well into the millions, says simply that it is “The History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ, Their Founder, to the Present Day”.
In 1912, D. B. Ray authored the coveted treasure, Baptist Succession, a Handbook of Baptist History and in the preface, Dr. Ray wrote, “Baptists have, with one voice denied any connection with the Roman apostasy, and claimed their origin, as a church, from Jesus Christ and the apostles”.
David Benedict, pastor of the Baptist church in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, wrote his classic “A General History of the Baptist Denomination” in 1813. All throughout the over 1200 pages of his monumental work, Mr. Benedict asserts that the Baptist denomination of his day was most assuredly the same as the church started by Jesus Christ Himself while He was on earth. He is most emphatic to state that the original church was a Baptist church.
Another venerable author, the Englishman William Jones, wrote The History of the Christian Church in 1812 and stated flatly, “the Waldenses were Baptists”. These ancient people and their churches existed from the early 1300’s to the beginning of the eighteenth century.
Yet another author, Charles B. Stovall, in his book, Baptist History and Succession, says, “It will be seen that the Baptists claim the high antiquity of the commencement of the Christian church. They can trace a succession of those who have believed the same doctrine and administered the same ordinances directly, up to the Apostolic Age.”
M. M. Munger, in his book, “Baptist Churches From Jerusalem to North America”, wrote, “The intention of this little work is to show that from the time of Christ, beginning while He was on earth, the church of Christ has not failed to exist down to this present year of 1926. We have chosen this line of history as being the most simple and direct; Jerusalem, Rome, Britain (now Wales), to the North American colonies. Baptist church perpetuity is a proven fact.”
And, of course, the testimony of the venerable G. H. Orchard, the great English Baptist wrote prior to 1855, "A Concise History of Baptists from the time of Christ their Founder to the 18th Century. "
Perhaps W. A. Jarrel said it best when he wrote in his book, Baptist Church Perpetuity or History in 1894, “the Baptist movement in history has always been back to the New Testament … then it was about 150 A.D. that the first Baptist protest was raised by the Montanists”.
While I am not sure it would be profitable to continue to quote Baptist author after Baptist author, my intention has been to show that all credible Baptist historians and theologians have both believed and taught that there is a direct link from the days of Christ and His apostles to the Baptist church of today.
Though called by other names, true Baptists subscribe to the idea that originally all churches were Baptist churches. Baptists who deny this historical position and indisputable fact are of modern origin and thought. Certainly they do not reflect the doctrine of church (Baptist) perpetuity as was so universally believed among Baptists of previous generations.
I however, to further solidify the premise that the acceptance of this doctrine was the majority opinion that prevailed in Baptist churches until recent times, we must add that other well known Baptists also adhered tenaciously to this belief. Such great men as Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Pastor of the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle in London), Jesse Mercer (for whom Mercer University is named), Francis Wayland (longtime Baptist pastor in New York state), J. M. Pendleton (former Professor of Theology at Union University in Murfreesborough, Tennessee), B. H. Carroll (former Pastor of the First Baptist Church in Waco, Texas and associate editor of The Texas Baptist), R. E. B. Baylor (Member of Congress from Alabama, Texas Supreme Court Justice and namesake of Baylor University) and W. A. Criswell (former pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas). These, along with countless scores of others, have been faithful to the end to proclaim the “tenets” of our faith and the glorious history of the Baptist church. Although basically passed from church to church, this belief was argued vehemently as early as 1640 when William Kiffin, who for sixty-one years (1640-1701) pastored the Baptist church in Devonshire Square in London and whose granddaughter married the grandson of Oliver Cromwell, wrote an essay defending the Baptist position of exclusion at the Lord’s Table (Communion).
To be Continued…Benaiah
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