How divided are Protestants?

[JJHIII]

Nevertheless (and it’s one of my favorite things to do) if you hand most Protestants a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, they won’t actually find all that much with which to disagree, except for Church structure and the precise meaning and effect of some (but not all) of the sacraments.

If you take 90% (probably more) of what the Pope says, most Protestants wouldn’t disagree with it unless they knew it came from the Pope. Some wouldn’t even disagree with it if they knew that’s who said it.

The term “Protestant” itself is derivative. It defines one as a Christian who disagrees with the Catholic Church in some respects not immediately specified.

I liked this quote that I read on the Catholicbridge website. I can’t remember what Bishop said this and it’s not exact but,

“There are 100 million people who hate what they THINK is the Catholic Church. But there are only 100 people who hate what the Catholic Church REALLY is.”

I thought that quote fits well with what you said.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I liked this quote that I read on the Catholicbridge website. I can’t remember what Bishop said this and it’s not exact but,

“There are 100 million people who hate what they THINK is the Catholic Church. But there are only 100 people who hate what the Catholic Church REALLY is.”

I thought that quote fits well with what you said.

everyone doesn’t hate the Catholic Church … get over yourselves. I don’t think it’s anymore ridiculous or bizarre than any other religion.

It’s the worlds biggest church as far as I know (although maybe Islam is … even scarier). It’s funny but here you guys are, the biggest and richest, yet you act like the poorest and smallest (is this the scam or what)? If anything those little protestant groups should be the paranoid ones (oh yeah … they already are). Ahh, gotta love religion. Paranoia, disdain for those who disagree with you, quibbling about words in a 17 century old book, etc. etc. etc. The apex of intellectualism in the western world.

Good grief!

 

[JonNC]

everyone doesn’t hate the Catholic Church … get over yourselves. I don’t think it’s anymore ridiculous or bizarre than any other religion.

It’s the worlds biggest church as far as I know (although maybe Islam is … even scarier). It’s funny but here you guys are, the biggest and richest, yet you act like the poorest and smallest (is this the scam or what)? If anything those little protestant groups should be the paranoid ones (oh yeah … they already are). Ahh, gotta love religion. Paranoia, disdain for those who disagree with you, quibbling about words in a 17 century old book, etc. etc. etc. The apex of intellectualism in the western world.

Good grief!

This, as compared to what other group of humans on what other subject? Do you see anything better out there?

All you’ve done here is inform us that the Church is filled with human beings.

Jon

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

everyone doesn’t hate the Catholic Church … get over yourselves. I don’t think it’s anymore ridiculous or bizarre than any other religion.

It’s the worlds biggest church as far as I know (although maybe Islam is … even scarier). It’s funny but here you guys are, the biggest and richest, yet you act like the poorest and smallest (is this the scam or what)? If anything those little protestant groups should be the paranoid ones (oh yeah … they already are). Ahh, gotta love religion. Paranoia, disdain for those who disagree with you, quibbling about words in a 17 century old book, etc. etc. etc. The apex of intellectualism in the western world.

Good grief!

Humble did you read the quote? Even though it was a loose paraphrase of what Bishop Sheen said, he is saying that there are 100 people who hate the Catholic Church… How is this saying that everyone hates the Catholic Church?

Would it be considered paranoia to read into a quote what you want and then make a knee jerk reaction about it?

God bless

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Humble did you read the quote? Even though it was a loose paraphrase of what Bishop Sheen said, he is saying that there are 100 people who hate the Catholic Church… How is this saying that everyone hates the Catholic Church?

Would it be considered paranoia to read into a quote what you want and then make a knee jerk reaction about it?

God bless

I responded to the tenor of this thread more than anything else (and people making statements like get ready for enhanced persecution, and all sorts of other bizarre apocolyptic predictions).

Sure it’s annoying that intelligent people base policy decisions on a religion that actually teaches things like talking snakes and flying angels. However, most atheists are not running around conspiring to tear down your church, or any other church for that matter (and we are usually very inclined to protect civil rights, including religious rights).

I just think the whole get ready for persecution thing is a tactic various churches use to build up paranoia and enhance allegiance.

It’s all an illusion people, but it’s hard to see through the fog of age old mythologies and superstition toward the unadulterated truth. You get raised a certain way, and you get dug in. Eventually your whole life becomes built around this fantasy (i.e. friends, family, etc.) that it becomes nearly impossible (or extremely undesireable) to back out of it. This is what keeps religion thriving (along with a small dose of paranoia and zealotry).

 

[JonNC]

=humble_in_doubt;5077192]I responded to the tenor of this thread more than anything else (and people making statements like get ready for enhanced persecution, and all sorts of other bizarre apocolyptic predictions).

Tell the priests/pastors in Canada that when they preach on Church and scripture teachings about homosexuality.

Sure it’s annoying that intelligent people base policy decisions on a religion that actually teaches things like talking snakes and flying angels. However, most atheists are not running around conspiring to tear down your church, or any other church for that matter (and we are usually very inclined to protect civil rights, including religious rights).

So, then, you oppose efforts to do away with conscience protections for doctors, healthcare givers, pharmacists, and hospitals who choose not to participate in activities related to abortion, for example. Or do you believe that so-called “reproductive rights” trump the civil/religious rights of pharmicists to choose not to sell the morning after pill, or a hospital not to perform and abortion?

I just think the whole get ready for persecution thing is a tactic various churches use to build up paranoia and enhance allegiance.

Tell that to the Russian Orthodox Church, or Christians in China.

It’s all an illusion people, but it’s hard to see through the fog of age old mythologies and superstition toward the unadulterated truth. You get raised a certain way, and you get dug in. Eventually your whole life becomes built around this fantasy (i.e. friends, family, etc.) that it becomes nearly impossible (or extremely undesireable) to back out of it. This is what keeps religion thriving (along with a small dose of paranoia and zealotry).

Perhaps your doubt in your handle is not so humble as you claim.
Jon

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Tell the priests/pastors in Canada that when they preach on Church and scripture teachings about homosexuality.

can you cite a case where a priest was physically harmed because of his homophobia (in Canada that is)? If so, was it an isolated case or are priests hunkered down in bunkers north of the border … on its face (having been to Canada many times) it sounds like a ridiculous claim.

So, then, you oppose efforts to do away with conscience protections for doctors, healthcare givers, pharmacists, and hospitals who choose not to participate in activities related to abortion, for example. Or do you believe that so-called “reproductive rights” trump the civil/religious rights of pharmicists to choose not to sell the morning after pill, or a hospital not to perform and abortion?

haven’t really thought about the issue, but I wonder if a doctor would be free to not treat an illness or injury? Probably not (I’m sure their oath compels them to treat all who are in need). So I guess you make that choice before you enter the profession. If you want to make 100% sure you will never perform an abortion … I guess don’t be a doctor.

Tell that to the Russian Orthodox Church, or Christians in China.

can you figure out a group who the Russians or Chinese haven’t oppressed (besides the members of their respective communist parties)?

Perhaps your doubt in your handle is not so humble as you claim.
Jon

maybe a bad choice for a screen name … I admit I’m pretty well convinced of my position.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I responded to the tenor of this thread more than anything else (and people making statements like get ready for enhanced persecution, and all sorts of other bizarre apocolyptic predictions).

Sure it’s annoying that intelligent people base policy decisions on a religion that actually teaches things like talking snakes and flying angels. However, most atheists are not running around conspiring to tear down your church, or any other church for that matter (and we are usually very inclined to protect civil rights, including religious rights).

I just think the whole get ready for persecution thing is a tactic various churches use to build up paranoia and enhance allegiance.

It’s all an illusion people, but it’s hard to see through the fog of age old mythologies and superstition toward the unadulterated truth. You get raised a certain way, and you get dug in. Eventually your whole life becomes built around this fantasy (i.e. friends, family, etc.) that it becomes nearly impossible (or extremely undesireable) to back out of it. This is what keeps religion thriving (along with a small dose of paranoia and zealotry).

And this is related to the topic in what way?

Perhaps you need to start a thread entitled “Why I disdain religion” and go from there. But you really are off topic in here.

 

[CAS64]

The practice of Sola scriptura (since the Reformation) has basically allowed for every individual, as an authority unto itself, to interpret scripture. As such it makes sense to state that this is at the basis for all the denominations (only since and after the Reformation have we seen such a plethora of denominations forming) we see amongst our Protestant bretheren. Also, to state that there is disagreement among Catholics (disunity in opinion) as if this in and of itself entails the same thing as literally separating themselves from the CC to form another denomination, is false (there are or have been movements within the CC by some Catholics who wish to overturn certain core doctrines of the one CC, for example, liberal theology). There is however and will always be one Catholic Church, no matter how many Catholics disagree with her on such and such a matter, that in no way suggests a multitude of denominations rather dissenting opinions of a professed Creed held by the one CC for two millenia.

P.S. I think you are confusing the structural and doctrinal oneness of the CC with unity among Catholics themselves. I would say therefore your comparison to Protestants (many professed creeds under the umbrella of Protestantism) and its many denominations (more than one structural/doctrinal organization) with Catholics dissenting on one point or another to the one creed of faith held by the CC, is faulty.

I take issue with you statement. First of all, I would like anyone here to name the 33,000 plus Protestant denominations that are claimed and give a brief summary of how each individual denomination differs from the others in doctrine. I also challenge Catholics to explain how it is they are united after seeing the statistical information on how Catholics voted in this most recent presidential election. As I see it, Catholics seem to create rather than proclaim these so called divisions in other faiths. I have have yet to read where the Roman Catholic church is the one true Church that Jesus founded in the Bible.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I take issue with you statement. First of all, I would like anyone here to name the 33,000 plus Protestant denominations that are claimed

Josie didn’t mention anything about 33,000 denominations…

I also challenge Catholics to explain how it is they are united after seeing the statistical information on how Catholics voted in this most recent presidential election.

For me at least this is two completely different things. There a Catholics who dissent from what the Church teaches, while there are several Protestant denominations which differ in what they teach. I see this as a difference but then again I am Catholic, maybe that is why I see it as a difference

As I see it, Catholics seem to create rather than proclaim these so called divisions in other faiths.

No Catholics have not created these divisions and they are not “so called divisions” they are real. Denying this only undermines your credibility. Is there a difference between how a Lutheran views communion and how a Baptist views it? How about baptism?

God bless

 

[jargon631]

I
I just think the whole get ready for persecution thing is a tactic various churches use to build up paranoia and enhance allegiance.

QUOTE]

i quite agree……fd

 

[CAS64]

Josie didn’t mention anything about 33,000 denominations…

Regardless, it has been referred to over and over again as a shot against Protestants. I would like to see somebody, anybody list them and what their doctrines are. This is a very central item in the discussion of how Catholics perceive all Protestants as being separated and divided.

 

[jargon631]

I take issue with you statement. First of all, I would like anyone here to name the 33,000 plus Protestant denominations that are claimed and give a brief summary of how each individual denomination differs from the others in doctrine…

who named 33,000 deniminations…i can only speak to my own ecperiences with (mostly) seventh-day adventists…they ALWAYS talk badly about other faiths…

I also challenge Catholics to explain how it is they are united after seeing the statistical information on how Catholics voted in this most recent presidential election. As I see it, Catholics seem to create rather than proclaim these so called divisions in other faiths

i disagree…the divisions are created by the individual denominations…

. I have have yet to read where the Roman Catholic church is the one true Church that Jesus founded in the Bible.

***and i have yet to read where he founded ANY church…or any religion for that ***matter…fdopcorn:

 

[CAS64]

jargon631:
Upon this rock I will build my Church. You missed that?

 

[JonNC]

=humble_in_doubt;5078447]can you cite a case where a priest was physically harmed because of his homophobia (in Canada that is)? If so, was it an isolated case or are priests hunkered down in bunkers north of the border … on its face (having been to Canada many times) it sounds like a ridiculous claim.

I will admit to only casual viewing of Candaian law, but it is my understanding that if a pastor/priest teaches what scripture says about homosexuality, it can be considered a violation of “hate speech” laws, but I could be wrong.

haven’t really thought about the issue, but I wonder if a doctor would be free to not treat an illness or injury? Probably not (I’m sure their oath compels them to treat all who are in need). So I guess you make that choice before you enter the profession. If you want to make 100% sure you will never perform an abortion … I guess don’t be a doctor.

A dodge? Are you comparing, say, a Tiller-style partial birth abortion to an illness or injury? The question is not whether you will ever perform an abortion. The question is can the government require you to do so, even if you believe that “do no harm” extends to the unborn.

can you figure out a group who the Russians or Chinese haven’t oppressed (besides the members of their respective communist parties)?

You said: “However, most atheists are not running around conspiring to tear down your church, or any other church for that matter (and we are usually very inclined to protect civil rights, including religious rights).” And “I just think the whole get ready for persecution thing is a tactic various churches use to build up paranoia and enhance allegiance.” I’m just saying that atheists (certainly not all) are quite capable of
oppressing civil and religious liberties.

maybe a bad choice for a screen name … I admit I’m pretty well convinced of my position.

I noticed. And at least for now, we are all welcome to our positions.
Jon

 

[jargon631]

Upon this rock I will build my Church. You missed that?

no…i missed the part where he names a specific church or religion…fd…

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Regardless, it has been referred to over and over again as a shot against Protestants. I would like to see somebody, anybody list them and what their doctrines are. This is a very central item in the discussion of how Catholics perceive all Protestants as being separated and divided.

I can probably name 10 to 15 off the top of my head, maybe 25-30 if I sat down and really thought about it but, in the end, I could really care less if there are 25 or 33,000. How many does one need to name to prove that there are divisions? Is not two one too many when Christ prayed that we would all be one? I am not going to sit here and blame all the divisions on Protestants as Catholics, being a part of Christendom, have played their fair share in the divisions.

I for one do not use the 33,000 claim, for one I don’t see that it matters and secondly it allows someone to side track the issue and try to get the attention off the topic. The point is not that there 33,000 different denominations but that there is division within Protestantism.

That’s a cop out. Regardless of what the RCC teaches, if its people are divided in what they believe, then there exists a division. You can’t wish and hope that away by putting the blinders on and just saying over and over that the church teaches one thing. Protestant denominations teach a specific doctrine in which its members many times are not united on either. I concede that.

I still find it different. You have a Church which has spoken with authority on matters and some of its adherents have decided not to follow these teaches. Where as OTOH different protestant churches teach different, and often times conflicting, doctrines. I see a difference here.

How about the similarities that many Protestants share with Catholics? Why don’t you ever hear about how Catholics admire the fact that Anglicans also believe in the Real Presence and how they too centralize the Eucharist in their worship?

Actually I do and have. In fact I would go so far as to say (and in reality I am not going too far out on a limb here) that there are Anglicans and Lutherans whose devotion to the Eucharist puts some Catholics to shame.

Why don’t you ever hear that? The Nicene Creed, the Sacrements, the Communion of Saints. Anglicans share those beliefs, Lutherans share some of them as well. Why not expound on that?

I, for one, do often.

Instead, Catholics separate themselves and attempt to make themselves exclusive to God, excluding others. You do separate and divide my friend.

I don’t. There are separations and divisions, me recognizing this fact is not causing them. I am grieved and sadden by the splits, and pray for their healing daily. But I do not see how ignoring them would do any good. We can be true to our differences and be civil in discussing them while still celebrating what we affirm together, but those differences are still there in the end.

God bless you.

 

[JonNC]

I can probably name 10 to 15 off the top of my head, maybe 25-30 if I sat down and really thought about it but, in the end, I could really care less if there are 25 or 33,000. How many does one need to name to prove that there are divisions? Is not two one too many when Christ prayed that we would all be one? I am not going to sit here and blame all the divisions on Protestants as Catholics, being a part of Christendom, have played their fair share in the divisions.

I for one do not use the 33,000 claim, for one I don’t see that it matters and secondly it allows someone to side track the issue and try to get the attention off the topic. The point is not that there 33,000 different denominations but that there is division within Protestantism.

I still find it different. You have a Church which has spoken with authority on matters and some of its adherents have decided not to follow these teaches. Where as OTOH different protestant churches teach different, and often times conflicting, doctrines. I see a difference here.

Actually I do and have. In fact I would go so far as to say (and in reality I am not going too far out on a limb here) that there are Anglicans and Lutherans whose devotion to the Eucharist puts some Catholics to shame.

I, for one, do often.

I don’t. There are separations and divisions, me recognizing this fact is not causing them. I am grieved and sadden by the splits, and pray for their healing daily. But I do not see how ignoring them would do any good. We can be true to our differences and be civil in discussing them while still celebrating what we affirm together, but those differences are still there in the end.

God bless you.

Yup, great and honest post.

CAS64, I encourage you to stick around for a while. It will broaden your opinion of Catholics.

Jon

 

[CAS64]

I can probably name 10 to 15 off the top of my head, maybe 25-30 if I sat down and really thought about it but, in the end, I could really care less if there are 25 or 33,000. How many does one need to name to prove that there are divisions? Is not two one too many when Christ prayed that we would all be one? I am not going to sit here and blame all the divisions on Protestants as Catholics, being a part of Christendom, have played their fair share in the divisions.

I for one do not use the 33,000 claim, for one I don’t see that it matters and secondly it allows someone to side track the issue and try to get the attention off the topic. The point is not that there 33,000 different denominations but that there is division within Protestantism.

I still find it different. You have a Church which has spoken with authority on matters and some of its adherents have decided not to follow these teaches. Where as OTOH different protestant churches teach different, and often times conflicting, doctrines. I see a difference here.

Actually I do and have. In fact I would go so far as to say (and in reality I am not going too far out on a limb here) that there are Anglicans and Lutherans whose devotion to the Eucharist puts some Catholics to shame.

I, for one, do often.

I don’t. There are separations and divisions, me recognizing this fact is not causing them. I am grieved and sadden by the splits, and pray for their healing daily. But I do not see how ignoring them would do any good. We can be true to our differences and be civil in discussing them while still celebrating what we affirm together, but those differences are still there in the end.

God bless you.

A good and fair post. I will however say that the whole premise of there being 33,000 or more Protestant denominations isn’t really accurate or helpful in understanding beliefs different than what Catholics believe. In actuality, there are about 7 or 8 mainline Protestant churches and most other churches split down the line from those. I doubt that there is even a tiny fraction of 33,000 different doctrines. Most churches split on behavioral or customary issues and not on Biblical doctrines. The separations are there, but I believe that they have been grossly over rated.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I will however say that the whole premise of there being 33,000 or more Protestant denominations isn’t really accurate or helpful in understanding beliefs different than what Catholics believe.

I will have to take your word that the 33,000 denominations claim is not accurate as I have never looked into it. I will completely agree however that it is not helpful to dialog. It seems to me that often times when it is brought up around here attention is switched from the topic to the validity or inaccuracy of the claim. Then by the time the 33,000 claim has been settled, it was forgotten what was even being discussed in the first place.

Anyways, like our friendly forum Lutheran, JonNC, stated, I hope you stick around.

God bless