How do catholic women or men justify their consciences with using contraception?

[russet1]

So all the sins you commit should be considered as bad as murder?

What? How do you draw this conclusion? Look, I’m going to give you Catholic teaching on the subject because I am a Catholic. From your posts so far I don’t know if Catholic theology, and faith would be enough for you but here goes.
Sin separates you from God.
If you die in unrepentant mortal sin you send yourself to hell.
There are many many sins that can separate you from God. From being disobedient to his Church to “murder.”
I guess those who die in mortal sin can argue for all eternity about who had the worst sin. But they will be arguing in the same place.

 

[russet1]

Really, so explain to me, Suslar, how we started out with the Commandment " thou shall not kill", which would be one of the big moral teaching of the church, yes?; to the church accepting the death penalty in certain case if it was to protect mankind until I believe in some point until the 1960s. How is that not altering a moral teaching and more a mortal sin, one of the biggest? You don’t even have to go onto the people the church killed itself in the mane of God. The Commandment is and was “THOU SHALL NOT KILL”, PERIOD! ???

There is no commandment that says “thou shall not kill”
There is a poor translation that uses that word but the original word is "murder’
Ironically with the birth control issue the command to not murder can be broken not only by the chemical aspects of some birth control but also by the anti life attitude that people use to not have children. That can actually break the spirit of the commandment more than your red herring argument of teh death penalty. I suggest doing some research and praying!

 

[shelby_sun]

Please start another thread, perhaps in the Moral Theology forum. This thread is supposed to be on the justification of contraception. Since the OP has deserted his/her thread, it’s probably time to stop.

Yes, since you cannot answer that question, I just might. I guess I should expect you to respond.

 

[shelby_sun]

There is no commandment that says “thou shall not kill”
There is a poor translation that uses that word but the original word is "murder’
Ironically with the birth control issue the command to not murder can be broken not only by the chemical aspects of some birth control but also by the anti life attitude that people use to not have children. That can actually break the spirit of the commandment more than your red herring argument of teh death penalty. I suggest doing some research and praying!

Are you SERIOUS? Yes, it becomes a red herring argument, when you cannot answer it better than “there is no commandment that says” thou shall not kill". Please.

 

[shelby_sun]

Ok, we started out with the Commandment “Thou shall not kill” and the other 9 with Moses on Mt. Sinai. Absolutely a Dogmatic teaching; it cannot change and has not changed. Moreover, a core belief or teaching that belongs to the corpus of Faith and Morals is infallible and cannot be dissented from without sin. Without believing that – which you already said you do not and that you do not care – it will be difficult for you to understand. But if you’d like to try, I will attempt an explanation.

Core beliefs and dogmatic teachings do not change; our human understanding can change. While we cannot ever know everything about God, we can come to understand a bit more than we did as children. The Dogma is not a moving target – but we have the capacity to mature in our spirituality. We can change.

The Church has always recognized the tension between the death penalty and the 5th Commandment. However, the Church has to honor not just the 5th commandment, but also the 8th too.

Look at this statement from the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
“The power of life and death is permitted to certain civil magistrates because theirs is the responsibility under law to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thy shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives.” - Part III, 5, #4, emphasis added

The moral principle that applies here is life. (Interestingly, it’s also the same moral principle that applies to the issue of contraception).

In past times, the Church held the belief that the death penalty allowed society to balance the right to life for people overall. Things are different now. It’s why the institutional church is alive and why our practices can change – we don’t live in the 1st century or in the Middle Ages. We have more knowledge now and are better able to understand than many of our ancestors, therefore we can apply natural law with a different understanding. There are certainly cases where taking a life is justified. I’m a bit surprised you did not mention war (although I am certain just war theory is covered in threads under the heading of Morals)

I might suggest you read this piece by Avery Cardinal Dulles. catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0461.html
Would love to hear your thoughts on Cardinal Dulles’ article.

No wonder people think the church has lost credibility. You have more loop holes than my one, and your are all over the place. If moral teaching cannot change, it cannot change, which has been stated hundreds of time on this site. You are spinning it to meet your own needs, but of course you are right. I really hope you don’t have to spin the contraception issue the same way one day, but you never know.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

After our Third son was Born I had a vasectomy, I feel no guilt about that…
I dont think we should do it just for the purpose of Procreation…
But we are all of different view point , I believe I did the right thing.

 

[Suslar]

No wonder people think the church has lost credibility. You have more loop holes than my one, and your are all over the place. If moral teaching cannot change, it cannot change, which has been stated hundreds of time on this site. You are spinning it to meet your own needs, but of course you are right. I really hope you don’t have to spin the contraception issue the same way one day, but you never know.

Shelby,

What are you talking about? What loopholes? What do you mean?

YOU asked for an explanation. In Christian charity, I tried to help you. I’m sorry I bothered. It was obviously time wasted.

Since you dissent from Church teaching, I did imagine you had not rec’d much more than a rudimentary education in the Faith and not extensive catechesis and advanced studies. Therefore, I condensed several years of graduate level studies into a couple lines for your benefit.

For anyone following this thread, dogmatic teaching cannot change. Since I am unmarried and therefore celibate, changing the Church’s teaching on contraception has no impact on me personally.

Shelby, the Church has lost credibility because people like you claim to belong to it but refuse to understand what your moral obligation as an adult believer even is. It’s those who “Cafeteria Catholics” who pick and choose what they might believe depending on how the wind blows that cause non-believers and those from other faith traditions to question the credibility of the Church. Fortunately, for those of us who love Her, Mother Church has withstood the test of time over 2000 years – despite the best attempts of humans to bring her down.

I will pray that you come to understand the error of your ways and that you then seek mercy and forgiveness in Christ.

 

[russet1]

Are you SERIOUS? Yes, it becomes a red herring argument, when you cannot answer it better than “there is no commandment that says” thou shall not kill". Please.

Yes shelby, I am serious. The commandment is thou shall not murder.
You need to define kill and murder. They are different and have different meanings. The original biblical text is murder.
Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[russet1]

I have a question for you shelby.
Why are you Catholic?
You disagree with the Church in matters of the faith so what level of authority does the Church have for you? How can you believe in something like the Eucharist and trust the Church in such a manner that goes against what you see with your own eyes and taste with your own mouth but then not agree on matters of morality that you think you know better than?
As you yourself pointed out there are plenty of other faiths that do not make the claim that the Church makes. And that is the infallible doctrine that you question. You have made several statements that seem to show that you do not understand the faith. I would suggest learning about your faith. It is the most important thing you will ever do in life.

 

[Suslar]

After our Third son was Born I had a vasectomy, I feel no guilt about that…
I dont think we should do it just for the purpose of Procreation…
But we are all of different view point , I believe I did the right thing.

Phil, Did you miss the prior 12 pages of posts?

Yes, intentional sterilization is a grave sin. And yes, dying with a moral sin on your soul is serious stuff.

No, the Church doesn’t believe in intercourse only for procreation – it is also for greater unity and love between the spouses.

Yes, you can have any viewpoint you want. That doesn’t mean it’s the viewpoint of the Church. The Church does not decide morality based on popular opinion.

Yes, most people who have had a correctly formed moral conscience would feel guilt for sin and seek to have those sins blotted out.

No, I’m not judging you.

No, being the product of ****** catechesis in Catholic schools and/or CCD in the late 70’s – early 90’s is not an excuse for failing to know the Faith as an adult.

 

[Phil_Marinus]

I Just love it when a good bunch of people come together and have a good Mass debate.
about such an important issue… some people go a little to far in there argument but thats there freedom of speech…

 

[Suslar]

I Just love it when a good bunch of people come together and have a good Mass debate.
about such an important issue… some people go a little to far in there argument but thats there freedom of speech…

Did I miss a debate about the Mass, or did you mean lower case “m” mass debate?

 

[SuperLuigi]

Burma? Syria? The Congo? The Sudan?

Not that it’s applicable to this thread… What I was saying is that some people feel that God has “bigger fish to fry” than couples who use condoms. They don’t think it’s a big deal compared to the atrocities being committed all over the world.

It’s kind of silly and dangerous to argue how God sees the magnitude of sins. His Judgement on such matters may surprise a lot of people.

And God has all the time in the universe to deal with small fish, medium-sized fish and big fish.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Really, so explain to me, Suslar, how we started out with the Commandment " thou shall not kill", which would be one of the big moral teaching of the church, yes?; to the church accepting the death penalty in certain case if it was to protect mankind until I believe in some point until the 1960s. How is that not altering a moral teaching and more a mortal sin, one of the biggest? You don’t even have to go onto the people the church killed itself in the mane of God. The Commandment is and was “THOU SHALL NOT KILL”, PERIOD! ???

Actually, it wasn’t .Executions were allowed in the Old Testament.

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Actions_punishable_by_death_in_the_Old_Testament#Possible_grounds_for_execution.

Today, there really is no excuse why capital punishment should exist in practice in the 21st Century in the United States.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Kill and murder are separate things. Murder is immoral. There is, however, such a thing as justifiable killing.

 

[shelby_sun]

Did I miss a debate about the Mass, or did you mean lower case “m” mass debate?

Yes, Phil you should know it is mass not Mass.

 

[shelby_sun]

I Just love it when a good bunch of people come together and have a good Mass debate.
about such an important issue… some people go a little to far in there argument but thats there freedom of speech…

Thank you.

 

[shelby_sun]

I have a question for you shelby.
Why are you Catholic?
You disagree with the Church in matters of the faith so what level of authority does the Church have for you? How can you believe in something like the Eucharist and trust the Church in such a manner that goes against what you see with your own eyes and taste with your own mouth but then not agree on matters of morality that you think you know better than?
As you yourself pointed out there are plenty of other faiths that do not make the claim that the Church makes. And that is the infallible doctrine that you question. You have made several statements that seem to show that you do not understand the faith. I would suggest learning about your faith. It is the most important thing you will ever do in life.

If you had read all my post, which you obviously haven’t, and really should so we don’t all get redundant, I don’t agree on this one matter for me, I NEVER said I knew better or that I was right and the church was wrong. I brought up the fact that I should live the church, and have struggled with that after coming to this site, something I had never done before. But after listening to people like you, and many others, over this one point I have thought of leaving the church. Luckily, I am surrounded by much better Catholics and priest that tell me that some people are extremist and that even though they can’t spit out the Bible word for word they are clueless to God’d love.

If I just spit out the words that I agree with this point just because the Catholic church says it is true, but don’ t believe it my heart, I am a liar. You seemed to have implied that maybe I shouldn’t be in the Catholic church, well you might want to be very careful about that because there are many more people that feel as I do and the church will lose millions of people if people like you had there way. I bet you push away more people than you bring into the church.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Shelby clearly does not understand the significance of the Magisterium of the Church and doesn’t seem to be interested in obeying Her moral teachings.

Satan chose not to serve, too. It’s your choice. Good luck living apart from Christian obedience.

 

[shelby_sun]

Shelby,

What are you talking about? What loopholes? What do you mean?

YOU asked for an explanation. In Christian charity, I tried to help you. I’m sorry I bothered. It was obviously time wasted.

Since you dissent from Church teaching, I did imagine you had not rec’d much more than a rudimentary education in the Faith and not extensive catechesis and advanced studies. Therefore, I condensed several years of graduate level studies into a couple lines for your benefit.

For anyone following this thread, dogmatic teaching cannot change. Since I am unmarried and therefore celibate, changing the Church’s teaching on contraception has no impact on me personally.

Shelby, the Church has lost credibility because people like you claim to belong to it but refuse to understand what your moral obligation as an adult believer even is. It’s those who “Cafeteria Catholics” who pick and choose what they might believe depending on how the wind blows that cause non-believers and those from other faith traditions to question the credibility of the Church. Fortunately, for those of us who love Her, Mother Church has withstood the test of time over 2000 years – despite the best attempts of humans to bring her down.

I will pray that you come to understand the error of your ways and that you then seek mercy and forgiveness in Christ.

Suslar, the fact than you brought up all your graduate level and advanced studies lost you even more credibility with me. As you must know by now that Jesuit study 13 years before becoming priests, but people don’t know that because don’t feel the need to go out and proclaim that, neither do good theologians, or any PhD for that matter. It sounds like you might not have a great deal of life experience, which the priests I have spoken have quite a bit, so I will stick with them.

The fact that you have nothing to do with contraception personally in your life should not change the fact that if the church ever does allow it, I would think that would effect you greatly spiritually, but again I am sure there will be another loop hole to explain it and you will just complete change your belief with how the wind then blows.