How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[Tanner9188]

Hi Tanner and God Bless you too!

I think we agree that this passage is about false teachers. But the Bible reserves the designation of “false teachers” or “false prophets” for those who intentionally try to deceive others with false doctrine and hence draw them away from the truth. There is a difference between one who teaches that which is objectively true and yet is a hypocrite and a person who teaches that which is false and hence a false prophet. In Philippians 1:15-18, Paul states:

Philippians 1:15-18

15Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
16the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
17the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice.

Here Paul states that there are those who preach the Gospel with sincerity of heart and there are others who preach out of selfish ambition. But in both cases, Christ is proclaimed and he rejoices. The assumption, of course, is that these hypocrtical preachers are teaching the truth. If they weren’t, then I highly doubt Paul would be rejoicing. But Paul rejoices because through their preaching of the Gospel, God can use these hypocritical teachers to bring people to the truth. The same cannot be said about false propehts and hence the warnings throughout the New Testament. So there is a difference, biblically speaking, between a hypocritical preacher/ teacher of the Gospel and a false teacher.

God Bless,
Michael

**I agree with the entire last summary paragraph.

Blessings!**

 

[mikeledes]

**The point is it is the “mans” righteousness. I don’t think we even disagree here, but just miscommunicating each of our thoughts. Except for the very last sentence; that we disagree.

Blessings!**

Hi Tanner!

“His” righteousness refers to the practice of righteousness. In other words, this person has turned away from practicing righteousness and dies in this state. Hence, he has failed to persevere.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jcrichton]

No one, means no one, including oneself. How is that taking the word “no one” out of context. Keep in mind, (paraphrasing) that God says no one would come to Him unless He drew Him…why? Because men love darkness rather than the light. The only free will you have is to sin.

…but aren’t you contradicting yourself? Removing ourselves from God is sin! That is why we are told, yes all of those in Christ, that no one can say that he/she does not have sin! (1 St. John 1:5-10); further, according to your interpretation, Lucifer and the rest of his angels were not removed from God’s hand…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

“chathah” Greek for snatch; Defined: to take hold of, seize, take away - you can remove yourself from the grasp of God? Wow! I’m speechless!

We do have a free will to sin. When we choose to do good, it is brought about by grace. When we do evil, we do so of our own free will. We can see that our free will remains by the fact that we still sin after regeneration. You can either conclude then if you commit a sin after regeneration that a) you either were not truly regenerated, b) God willed you to do evil, or c) you still retained the free will to refuse to cooperate with God’s grace, which was leading you to do the right thing. The good a man does in the sight of God is because of the indwelling of the Spirit; a true believer has a new what? Heart---- Given by whom? God. —

3John 1:11 -
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. Emphasis is the “good” comes from God & the negative is that the one who does not do good is not of God. When you see the positive with the negative in a single passge; this is major emphasis on a point.

I would call it saving grace; never heard of “grace of final perseverance”; doesn’t appear in the Bible that way…of course He is speaking about the elect whom He foreknew and predestined - so much for that free will.
…sadly much misunderstood–God does not predestine anyone for damnation… neither does He place a blanquet “Salvation” on groups or individual because they merit it. Few are the ones that have received such Grace as to be kept by God–these have been only to further His Salvific Plan (one group is Israel’s Remnant, as individuals there are the prophets and Mary); those whom God foreknew and predestined for Salvation are found in St. John 1:12-13.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi !
one of the most haunting lines in the New Testament. Jesus says, ““when the Son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?”” The Christian faith has faded away, even in lands where it was once vibrant: Egypt, Turkey, North Africa, etc. Will it endure in Western Europe, in our country? The cultivation of the faith is obviously God’s work first, but it is also ours. What are we doing to make sure that the Christian Gospel is successfully passed on to the next generation.

In luke 3: 9 John the Baptist states: even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does notbproduce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.vs 10 the crowds ask then what should we do? vs 11- 14 John is preachiong repentance, to turn around, change our ways, this is what justice demands of all. This is also what Jesus preaches is it not ?

Peace,onenow1opcorn:

…what is lacking in the world today is obedience to Christ’s Commandments: “Be one,” “Love one another,” “abide in Me,” “Obey my Commandment…”

…even as Catholics and non-Catholics continue to call ourselves “Christians” we live a divide and an enmity that continues to fuel Satan’s minions; the children of the world continue to unite under the guise of “freedom” and “development” while “Christians” continue to battle and separate; as in times past, modern man wants to eradicate Yahweh God from the world and in cultures such as that of the US some “Christians” stood for the culture of death rather than against it–it is clear that Christ’s agony was not just that of physical desperation but as two distict tellings ("…when the Son of man returns, will He find Faith on earth?" “…they will not believe even if a man returned from the dead…”) reveal, He suffered the knowledge that man’s spiritual Life would be readily forfeited in exchange for the “promises” of the world.

We must heed Christ: “the world will know that you are my disciples if you Love one another.”

Unless we (all of Christendom) stop our in-fighting, the Gospel of Christ will go the way of that ole “Merry Christmas!” salutation that has almost completely disappeared from our society.

…and if we think that by teaching our children at home we are safe, know that our Catholic and non-Catholic Christian children are bombarded with anti-Christian values through the various media conduits and society at large.

We must stop being listeners/readers/quoters of the Word and we must become doers of the Word!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Tanner9188]

…but aren’t you contradicting yourself? Removing ourselves from God is sin! That is why we are told, yes all of those in Christ, that no one can say that he/she does not have sin! (1 St. John 1:5-10); further, according to your interpretation, Lucifer and the rest of his angels were not removed from God’s hand…

Maran atha!

Angel

**
No, angels have nothing to do with the redemption of man; so we can just remove them from the scene. We all sin, even after salvation, and during sanctification; it is not about the perfection of our life as much as it is the direction of our life; the direction is to be more like Christ, which we won’t achieve until we see Him as He is and then will will be Like Him…this is future perfection.

God bless you this day!**

 

[Tanner9188]

…what is lacking in the world today is obedience to Christ’s Commandments: “Be one,” “Love one another,” “abide in Me,” “Obey my Commandment…”

…even as Catholics and non-Catholics continue to call ourselves “Christians” we live a divide and an enmity that continues to fuel Satan’s minions; the children of the world continue to unite under the guise of “freedom” and “development” while “Christians” continue to battle and separate; as in times past, modern man wants to eradicate Yahweh God from the world and in cultures such as that of the US some “Christians” stood for the culture of death rather than against it–it is clear that Christ’s agony was not just that of physical desperation but as two distict tellings ("…when the Son of man returns, will He find Faith on earth?" “…they will not believe even if a man returned from the dead…”) reveal, He suffered the knowledge that man’s spiritual Life would be readily forfeited in exchange for the “promises” of the world.

We must heed Christ: “the world will know that you are my disciples if you Love one another.”

Unless we (all of Christendom) stop our in-fighting, the Gospel of Christ will go the way of that ole “Merry Christmas!” salutation that has almost completely disappeared from our society.

…and if we think that by teaching our children at home we are safe, know that our Catholic and non-Catholic Christian children are bombarded with anti-Christian values through the various media conduits and society at large.

We must stop being listeners/readers/quoters of the Word and we must become doers of the Word!

Maran atha!

Angel

**That is great advice; however there are at least two different gospels and getting it right is most important. This is why most people that consider themselves as Christians are not.

Read Matthew 7:13-14. Jesus is speaking of very religious people who all put a claim on God and the passages describes two paths marked heaven, but only one actually leads there and the last statement in verse 14 is “few there be that find it”. So, who has it right? One thing we know is that most do not.**

 

[Tanner9188]

We do have a free will to sin. When we choose to do good, it is brought about by grace. When we do evil, we do so of our own free will. We can see that our free will remains by the fact that we still sin after regeneration. You can either conclude then if you commit a sin after regeneration that a) you either were not truly regenerated, b) God willed you to do evil, or c) you still retained the free will to refuse to cooperate with God’s grace, which was leading you to do the right thing. The good a man does in the sight of God is because of the indwelling of the Spirit; a true believer has a new what? Heart---- Given by whom? God. —

3John 1:11 -
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. Emphasis is the “good” comes from God & the negative is that the one who does not do good is not of God. When you see the positive with the negative in a single passge; this is major emphasis on a point.

I would call it saving grace; never heard of “grace of final perseverance”; doesn’t appear in the Bible that way…of course He is speaking about the elect whom He foreknew and predestined - so much for that free will.
…sadly much misunderstood–God does not predestine anyone for damnation… neither does He place a blanquet “Salvation” on groups or individual because they merit it. Few are the ones that have received such Grace as to be kept by God–these have been only to further His Salvific Plan (one group is Israel’s Remnant, as individuals there are the prophets and Mary); those whom God foreknew and predestined for Salvation are found in St. John 1:12-13.

Maran atha!

Angel

Do you believe the Bible teaches that God chooses the “elect”’ which He determined before the foundation of the earth? Do you believe He knew about each person that would be born and walk on the earth?

 

[una_fides]

**The point is it is the “mans” righteousness. I don’t think we even disagree here, but just miscommunicating each of our thoughts. Except for the very last sentence; that we disagree.

Blessings!**

The Scriptures here are clearly referring to a man who is truly righteous, and man cannot be truly righteous apart from Christ, as you yourself pointed out earlier. If this man is truly righteous, then he is in Christ. If he turns from that righteousness and commits grave evils, his soul will die. But if a wicked man, who is apart from Christ, turns from that wickedness and repents, he shall live.

The context again makes it clear that God is telling Ezekiel to warn the people to be truly righteous and to not depart from that righteousness. He warns that if they do depart from that righteous state (which they have in faith) they will die and their former righteousness (which again is true righteousness in God) will not be remembered. The text again is clear that this righteousness is real and not fictitious or a sort of false righteousness or self righteousness. The penalty for falling from the state of holiness is death. The reward to continuing in God and in a truly righteous state is eternal life.

 

[una_fides]

**
No, angels have nothing to do with the redemption of man; so we can just remove them from the scene. We all sin, even after salvation, and during sanctification; it is not about the perfection of our life as much as it is the direction of our life; the direction is to be more like Christ, which we won’t achieve until we see Him as He is and then will will be Like Him…this is future perfection.

God bless you this day!**

But you claimed that your will is God’s and that he moves it correct? If it is God moving your will, then you would have to conclude that he is moving your will to sin after you have initially been saved. (Also remember in salvation there is a past, present, and future aspect. You have been justified, you are being justified, and you hope to be justified.)

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 He who does not love me does not keep my words [commandments]

If you do not keep the commandments, you do not have charity for God, and if you do not have charity for God, then how can you claim to be a Christian?

1Co 13:13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity is even greater than faith! If you do not love God, then you cannot claim to be one of his sons, and if you break his commandments, then you do not love God, and his wrath will be upon you if you do not repent and turn from that wickedness.

 

[onenow1]

The Scriptures here are clearly referring to a man who is truly righteous, and man cannot be truly righteous apart from Christ, as you yourself pointed out earlier. If this man is truly righteous, then he is in Christ. If he turns from that righteousness and commits grave evils, his soul will die. But if a wicked man, who is apart from Christ, turns from that wickedness and repents, he shall live.

The context again makes it clear that God is telling Ezekiel to warn the people to be truly righteous and to not depart from that righteousness. He warns that if they do depart from that righteous state (which they have in faith) they will die and their former righteousness (which again is true righteousness in God) will not be remembered. The text again is clear that this righteousness is real and not fictitious or a sort of false righteousness or self righteousness. The penalty for falling from the state of holiness is death. The reward to continuing in God and in a truly righteous state is eternal life.

Quote=onenow1. Right on target !

Perhaps one of the best examples of the use of Free Will is in Gen 2:15 to Gen 3:1-7. GOD commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil. Then the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of that tree. They decided of their own free will to eat of the tree. They chose evil over good. It was NOT the will of GOD for them to do this (Gen 2:17).

Peace, onenow1

 

[una_fides]

Quote=onenow1. Right on target !

Perhaps one of the best examples of the use of Free Will is in Gen 2:15 to Gen 3:1-7. GOD commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil. Then the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of that tree. They decided of their own free will to eat of the tree. They chose evil over good. It was NOT the will of GOD for them to do this (Gen 2:17).

Peace, onenow1

Great point in bringing up Adam and Eve. In the same day they ate from the tree, they died the death (literal translation) (Gen 2:17). Yet they continued to live their earthly lives? This death can be referring to none else than spiritual death. Adam and Eve were made perfect in an original state of holiness. They were most certainly “saved” (as Baptists and Calvinists would put it). But when they ate from the fruit and disobeyed God’s commandment, they died spiritually and fell from grace. And as a result of their fall, we all even to this day continue to suffer from the effects from their original sin.

 

[mikeledes]

I would call it saving grace; never heard of “grace of final perseverance”; doesn’t appear in the Bible that way…of course He is speaking about the elect whom He foreknew and predestined - so much for that free will.

But you heard of “persverance to the end” in the Bible? Persverance to the end comes from God and it is not something that is earned. Hence it is a gift. That’s why it’s called the gift of final perseverance. It is a theological term, but the concept is taught in Scripture. The words “Trinity” and “incarnation” are not found in Scripture. And yet the concepts are there. Moreover, the Bible doesn’t call itself “Bible”, and yet we use that term.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

All of you intellectuals should be very proud of yourselves!
:grouphug:

 

[Tanner9188]

But you claimed that your will is God’s and that he moves it correct? If it is God moving your will, then you would have to conclude that he is moving your will to sin after you have initially been saved. (Also remember in salvation there is a past, present, and future aspect. You have been justified, you are being justified, and you hope to be justified.)

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 He who does not love me does not keep my words [commandments]

If you do not keep the commandments, you do not have charity for God, and if you do not have charity for God, then how can you claim to be a Christian?

1Co 13:13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity is even greater than faith! If you do not love God, then you cannot claim to be one of his sons, and if you break his commandments, then you do not love God, and his wrath will be upon you if you do not repent and turn from that wickedness.

**The word you cited for charity is agape, which is love, not charity.

I don’t know where I made a statement that my will is Gods will; but I will say if you are filled with the spirit; you will be changed and the propensity to sin will be less and less as the Holy Spirit sanctifies us throughout our Christian life to the direction of the perfection of Christ; but never obtaining it in this life. We won’t be perfected until we see Him as He is, then we will be like Him. I never met a true and mature Christian, one that accepts God’s saving grace through faith in Christ and all that encompasses, that was concerned about loosing their salvation since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that a person of God has eternal security in Christ. If there were no other passages in all of Scripture;
1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

God bless you this night!**

 

[erikd]

I never met a true and mature Christian, one that accepts God’s saving grace through faith in Christ and all that encompasses, that was concerned about loosing their salvation since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that a person of God has eternal security in Christ. If there were no other passages in all of Scripture;
1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Tanner:

I believe that the verse you are referring to speaks of the confidence in prayer due to our relationship with the Father. While the promise of eternal salvation cannot be taken away by anyone else (John 10: 27-30) it can certainly be squandered by the receiver of this special gift. Remember that in Baptism we died with Christ (Romans 6:8, Colossians 2:20 Galatians 2:19) but St. Paul himself tells us that we can fall away from the gift conferred upon as during Baptism by destroying the new life and rebuilding the old life, thus becoming transgressors (Galatians 2:18). To believe yourself saved, and not work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12, Ephesians 6:5, 2 Corinthians 7:15) is what Catholics call the “sin of presumption.” Presumption is considered a “vice opposed to the theological virtue of hope. It may also be regarded as a product of pride.” Catholic Encyclopedia. Remember, Jesus never said "You are my friends if you (accept Me as your personal Lord and Savior and confess Me with all your heart) but He did say “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.” John 15:14.

God Bless

 

[erikd]

The word you cited for charity is agape, which is love, not charity.

Tanner:

One more thing as this requires some clarification. Since you are a Christian, you must, undoubtedly be familiar with the King James Version of the Bible. The KJV lists “agape” as “charity” 27 times, “feasts of charity” once, and “love” 86 times. So, the word can be used, even in Protestant circles, as charity. Just wanted to clarify.

God Bless

 

[erikd]

The word you cited for charity is agape, which is love, not charity.

Tanner:

And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.
Douay Rheims Version

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
King James Version

And now abides faith, hope, love, (o. agape) these three; but the greatest of these is love. (o. agape)
King James Version Udated.

Here are some examples of “agape” being used as both “charity” and “love.”

God Bless

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner:

I believe that the verse you are referring to speaks of the confidence in prayer due to our relationship with the Father. While the promise of eternal salvation cannot be taken away by anyone else (John 10: 27-30) it can certainly be squandered by the receiver of this special gift. Remember that in Baptism we died with Christ (Romans 6:8, Colossians 2:20 Galatians 2:19) but St. Paul himself tells us that we can fall away from the gift conferred upon as during Baptism by destroying the new life and rebuilding the old life, thus becoming transgressors (Galatians 2:18). To believe yourself saved, and not work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12, Ephesians 6:5, 2 Corinthians 7:15) is what Catholics call the “sin of presumption.” Presumption is considered a “vice opposed to the theological virtue of hope. It may also be regarded as a product of pride.” Catholic Encyclopedia. Remember, Jesus never said "You are my friends if you (accept Me as your personal Lord and Savior and confess Me with all your heart) but He did say “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.” John 15:14.

God Bless

This what you are taught; but not by the Word of God. I cited one of many passages concerning the security of the believer based upon the promises in Christ. If one cannot understand this plain-as-day passage, then the others will be as much or more confusing.

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner:

One more thing as this requires some clarification. Since you are a Christian, you must, undoubtedly be familiar with the King James Version of the Bible. The KJV lists “agape” as “charity” 27 times, “feasts of charity” once, and “love” 86 times. So, the word can be used, even in Protestant circles, as charity. Just wanted to clarify.

God Bless

**
I understand and agree, but agape love is so strong; I prefer that. Thanks for bringing this up.

God bless you!**