E
East_and_West
Guest
But he never said that you protestants were aloud to establish false religions and doctrines. You seem to think that your disobedience to the word of God is what he wanted.
- Status
A
adstrinity
Guest
D
dan1el
Guest
Ofcourse there’s alot of garbage in Protestantism, but the first step to correction is admitting you are wrong.
Jesus preached “repentance” : to change your mind.
M
maryj
Guest
I’mmmmm just a little nothin
my head all full of stuffin
my heart all full of pain
doo doot doot doo de doot
with the thoughts I’d be thinkin
I could be a nother lincoln
if I only had a brain.
I win…right?
O
Our_Refuge
Guest
=
Mary’s only child was Jesus. The dragon only makes war with those that follow His commandments. That would be Christians.Mary’s offspring therefore are Christians.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
So we didn’t … God anointed the reformers to rescue Christianity – and they did. Imagine the world if the reformation never happened? It would be a horrible place.
Thank you God for Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the rest! Thank you for continuing to bless us with good theologians like N.T Wright. Thank you for America and giving us the freedom to worship you without the fear of an oppressive church. God is great!
D
dan1el
Guest
Actually, to correct you, we are not Mary’s offspring, but the offspring of:
“…Jerusalem which is above, the mother of us all.” Gal. 4:26
"Indeed, of Zion it will be said, “This one and that one were born in her, and the Most High himself will establish her.” Psalm 87:5
“You continued looking until a stone (Jesus) was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.
Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found, but the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. …
Inasmuch as you saw that a stone (Jesus) was cut out of the mountain (what Mountain? Mount Zion) without hands…”
Daniel 2:34,35,45
“For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,
and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.
For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.”
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.”
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels…”
So, Mount Zion is simply another name for Jerusalem, whether heavenly or earthly; however, in this case, and in the case of Daniel 2:45, it is speaking of Jesus, who came from Mount Zion/the Heavenly Jerusalem, which has now given birth to us as well, which, again, is confirmed by the Scripture in Rev 21:12 which shows clearly the interpretation of the “crown of 12 stars” which the Heavenly Jerusalem is wearing. It is in no way the human woman, Mary.
C
Chancellor
Guest
I apologize for the font but I would like an answer to my replay to the protestant position.
It has been asked "How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God: there is also one mediator between God and humankind, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all.”
Given this verse we wonder how Mary or a Saint or anyone can mediate for us with God. Fair Qustion. The answer presumes a deeper understanding of Christian theology than can be housed in a proof-text but here it is:
Galatians 2:19-20 Paul speaking "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.
For Catholics Mary is our exemplar. Who has ever been more full of Christ? Who ever approached Him more directly? The question is not really why Mary serves as a mediator, but why we don’t all fully realize that each of us, if Christ is in us, is called to be a mediator as well? But even without Christ, the bible is full of examples of human beings who mediated directly with God (think Abraham on the hill above Sodom and Gomorrah).
That’s all for now. Will on of you protestants please answer this question?
Where is Jesus right now?
The Chancellor
I will be out of town until Sunday and will look for responses then.
It has been asked "How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God: there is also one mediator between God and humankind, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all.”
Given this verse we wonder how Mary or a Saint or anyone can mediate for us with God. Fair Qustion. The answer presumes a deeper understanding of Christian theology than can be housed in a proof-text but here it is:
Galatians 2:19-20 Paul speaking "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.
For Catholics Mary is our exemplar. Who has ever been more full of Christ? Who ever approached Him more directly? The question is not really why Mary serves as a mediator, but why we don’t all fully realize that each of us, if Christ is in us, is called to be a mediator as well? But even without Christ, the bible is full of examples of human beings who mediated directly with God (think Abraham on the hill above Sodom and Gomorrah).
That’s all for now. Will on of you protestants please answer this question?
Where is Jesus right now?
The Chancellor
I will be out of town until Sunday and will look for responses then.
A
Arglaze
Guest
Again, I can see where that line of thought goes, but the mediation that Jesus does for us is not the same type of mediation we are called to do.
Jesus is the Bridge between Man and God. There is no bridge to the Bridge. You’re either on the Bridge or you are not. You may point others to the Bridge, but you yourself are not the Bridge. For others to come to you instead of the Bridge, would be to look at your finger, not what your finger is pointing at.
Like you say, Abraham spoke to God as a man speaks to a friend. But the person Abraham spoke to was Jesus before the incarnation, for the Scriptures say that no man has seen God, but Jesus is the express image of his Person (1 Timothy 6:16; Hebrews 1:3). Therefore even before the incarnation Christ was a Mediator between us and the Father. I think we can agree on that.
Now, the question, who’s ever been more full of Christ? Who’s ever approached him more directly?
The Bible doesn’t say. And that question is a double edge blade.
Because the way in which most people would look at it is: “literally, well she had Jesus inside her body” but that’s not necessarily the sense in which the Bible teaches being full of Christ is, being we can’t all get pregnant with Him. So being full of Christ in its correct Biblical sense would mean, being full of His Words, which he in several places equates the eating of his flesh with the hearing the Words of God and doing them.
Who’s approached him more directly? That’s another question that is left for assumption, approached in what sense? John the beloved approached Jesus more directly than anyone that I can see in the Scriptures. The fact is that most of Jesus’ youth in Scriptures is silent, except the time Joseph and Mary forgot him in the church, and that He was a carpenter (so I imagine he must have spent a lot of time with his father), so we shouldn’t jump to conclusions on such few evidence. And this silence probably means it wasn’t as important as the work he did within the last 3 years before the cross.
“Christ lives in me?” Yes, we are all called to be a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6 & 1 Peter 2:9) to reconcile the human family to God. That’s what God told Israel we would be. But that’s not the same mediation that Jesus does. Christ mediation (clearly explained in Hebrews) in our behalf deals specifically with the fact that He was crucified (not us). Therefore by him being crucified and experiencing death (the death that should have been ours) we are also alive because of His resurrection. That’s why Paul says "for I am crucified with Christ (baptism symbolizing our death to self) and yet I live, not I but Christ (coming out of the water as a new born creature, all things are past and everything’s become new, John 3:5; 2 Cor. 5:17).
So the mediation is that when God sees us, he doesn’t see us, he sees Jesus in us. The promise was to Abraham’s Seed, not seeds, and that Seed is Jesus in us.
In that light, there is no step between man and God other than Jesus. Other men can’t mediate between God and us, because they were not crucified for us. The promise is “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” And we point other men to Jesus by lifting Jesus up in our lives.
Just like the old system of ceremonies, The sinner came to the court with the sacrifice, and confessed his sins, but the sinner didn’t go into the sanctuary, the priest did (Jesus) and the priest (Jesus) communed with God in behalf of the sinner.
Mary was not crucified for us, nor was anyone else, so because of that they can’t exercise mediation between us and our Creator. You may pray to God for a friend, someone may pray for you, but the only Mediator is Jesus.
Notice that you pray to God for a friend, not for a friend to speak to another friend and eventually hope that it gets there.
But like I said, we shouldn’t pray to the dead, just to the living, and that is Jesus.
Hope your trip goes well. God bless you.
D
dan1el
Guest
You honor flesh; God is not a respecter of persons.
By your thought, you would expect people in Israel, who were physically closer to God and His perfect laws, to have more faith than those living outside the covenant, and yet Jesus MARVELED at the faith of the centurion soldier, a Gentile.
How many times did Jesus have to break this paradigm?
He mentioned that in the days of Elisha or Elijah, I forget, ‘there were many widows in Israel,’ yet he was sent to none of them but a woman OUTSIDE the covenant people.
“Do not think to say ‘we have Abraham as our Father…’”
'O, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who stones the prophets, and kills those sent to her…"
Do not trust in your name, but ‘he who boasts, let him boast in this, that He knows My name.’
It seems God works with needy people; not people who are already full:
“Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.” Luke 6:25
Those who are needy and impoverished in spirit are blessed, such as the woman whose daughter was tormented with a demon - a nobody - whose was able to make Jesus break His plans (I was not sent to anyone but the lost sheep of isreal, it is not good to give the childrens’ bread to the dogs) to bless her.
Whereas, Jesus marveled at the unbelief found in Israel. Why? They were filled already; they had received their reward already, as Jesus said, and had no treasure in heaven.
Don’t be so comfortable in your name trusting that you are a “Catholic”, so you can now take your rest. Instead, be on the alert; this was the whole point of the lesson learned in Babylon, where the people tried to establish a name for themselves.
So, in that you have said that person physically closest to Jesus, as you suppose was Mary, ought to have been filled with more faith than anyone, your logic doesn’t quite work out. In fact, your “Father”, Peter, had a co-mediator in your sense of the word, in that he leaned over and asked John, who was much closer to Jesus than he was, to speak to Jesus to find out who the betrayer was. What makes you think no one is closer to Jesus, and more filled with His riches, than you, children of Peter? (If that’s the way you want to look at it.)
If Mary were so filled with faith, she would’ve been written of any of the Epistles, or the book of Acts, or any other book, which she wasn’t, except for maybe one verse here or there.
How can you say she is a mediator of the covenant – she didn’t even shed any bled for anyone – it was Jesus’ blood alone, and nothing else. Why do you want to put someone else in there? Why does it say “For there is NO OTHER NAME given under heaven whereby men must be saved.”
I guess you would answer that by saying, “Well, that’s because Mary is the Queen! of Heaven, and she isn’t UNDER heaven.”
I think not.
“No other name”. This means Jesus PLUS NO OTHER. Jesus + 0 = Jesus ALONE.
You come up with all this fluff which has no basis in Scripture, and its simply called idolatry:
The idea of the Queen of Heaven is a pagan idea which carried over into your Christian practices Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17,18, 25
These are paradigns which must be broken, since they are from the world - and all that is of the world is not ofthe Father in Heaven.
If the truth sets you free, the converse is also true, and it binds you.
So, to answer your question, I do not believe it was necessary for Mary to have more faith than anyone simply based on physical proximity, evident in the case of the Apostle Peter, who walked with Jesus for 3 years and yet didn’t have the faith the Apostle Paul had - Paul having not physically walked with Jesus, but who was intimately acquainted with His word:
“When a scribe converts, he is has a person who brings out of his treasure both new and old things.”
When will you learn that spirit and truth are more valuable to God than any flesh??
Didn’t even Jesus say, “If you love (meaning, if you submit to and obey) your brother, sister, mother, father, more than Me, you’re not worthy of Me”?
He said, even “if you love your own life more than Me, you’re not worthy of Me.”
To God, principles and spirit are thicker than flesh-ties. And if you mess up, God has someone waiting to take your place, just as He did with Saul and David, and just as He planned to do with the Israelites,
“Let Me alone that I may destroy these people, for I have seen that they are a stubborn and stiff-necked people - and I will make a new nation out of you, Moses.” (my paraphrase)
To God, more important than physical, is spiritual.
But who knows if this is enough to open your ears, because
“This peoples’ ears have grown dull, that they may not hear…”
If I am a “Protestant”, it is simply against every false establishment, including the myriad false establishments in the “Protestant” churches, as well. 1 Th 5:21
But to go on being so thick that you cannot receive correction, doesn’t the Bible have something to say about these people: a person who thinks they are wise is worse off than a fool, because at least a fool has hope of being corrected, but a person who is wise in their own conceits, it is impossible to correct them, so I advise you not to seek or receive praise from men, even the so-called “establishment” of the Catholic Church. God’s Kingdom is NOT of this world; it is a spiritual Kingdom; flesh and blood will not inherit it; only those who hunger for it and who enter it by the narrow gate of the truth.
By your thought, you would expect people in Israel, who were physically closer to God and His perfect laws, to have more faith than those living outside the covenant, and yet Jesus MARVELED at the faith of the centurion soldier, a Gentile.
How many times did Jesus have to break this paradigm?
He mentioned that in the days of Elisha or Elijah, I forget, ‘there were many widows in Israel,’ yet he was sent to none of them but a woman OUTSIDE the covenant people.
“Do not think to say ‘we have Abraham as our Father…’”
'O, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who stones the prophets, and kills those sent to her…"
Do not trust in your name, but ‘he who boasts, let him boast in this, that He knows My name.’
It seems God works with needy people; not people who are already full:
“Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.” Luke 6:25
Those who are needy and impoverished in spirit are blessed, such as the woman whose daughter was tormented with a demon - a nobody - whose was able to make Jesus break His plans (I was not sent to anyone but the lost sheep of isreal, it is not good to give the childrens’ bread to the dogs) to bless her.
Whereas, Jesus marveled at the unbelief found in Israel. Why? They were filled already; they had received their reward already, as Jesus said, and had no treasure in heaven.
Don’t be so comfortable in your name trusting that you are a “Catholic”, so you can now take your rest. Instead, be on the alert; this was the whole point of the lesson learned in Babylon, where the people tried to establish a name for themselves.
So, in that you have said that person physically closest to Jesus, as you suppose was Mary, ought to have been filled with more faith than anyone, your logic doesn’t quite work out. In fact, your “Father”, Peter, had a co-mediator in your sense of the word, in that he leaned over and asked John, who was much closer to Jesus than he was, to speak to Jesus to find out who the betrayer was. What makes you think no one is closer to Jesus, and more filled with His riches, than you, children of Peter? (If that’s the way you want to look at it.)
If Mary were so filled with faith, she would’ve been written of any of the Epistles, or the book of Acts, or any other book, which she wasn’t, except for maybe one verse here or there.
How can you say she is a mediator of the covenant – she didn’t even shed any bled for anyone – it was Jesus’ blood alone, and nothing else. Why do you want to put someone else in there? Why does it say “For there is NO OTHER NAME given under heaven whereby men must be saved.”
I guess you would answer that by saying, “Well, that’s because Mary is the Queen! of Heaven, and she isn’t UNDER heaven.”
I think not.
“No other name”. This means Jesus PLUS NO OTHER. Jesus + 0 = Jesus ALONE.
You come up with all this fluff which has no basis in Scripture, and its simply called idolatry:
The idea of the Queen of Heaven is a pagan idea which carried over into your Christian practices Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17,18, 25
These are paradigns which must be broken, since they are from the world - and all that is of the world is not ofthe Father in Heaven.
If the truth sets you free, the converse is also true, and it binds you.
So, to answer your question, I do not believe it was necessary for Mary to have more faith than anyone simply based on physical proximity, evident in the case of the Apostle Peter, who walked with Jesus for 3 years and yet didn’t have the faith the Apostle Paul had - Paul having not physically walked with Jesus, but who was intimately acquainted with His word:
“When a scribe converts, he is has a person who brings out of his treasure both new and old things.”
When will you learn that spirit and truth are more valuable to God than any flesh??
Didn’t even Jesus say, “If you love (meaning, if you submit to and obey) your brother, sister, mother, father, more than Me, you’re not worthy of Me”?
He said, even “if you love your own life more than Me, you’re not worthy of Me.”
To God, principles and spirit are thicker than flesh-ties. And if you mess up, God has someone waiting to take your place, just as He did with Saul and David, and just as He planned to do with the Israelites,
“Let Me alone that I may destroy these people, for I have seen that they are a stubborn and stiff-necked people - and I will make a new nation out of you, Moses.” (my paraphrase)
To God, more important than physical, is spiritual.
But who knows if this is enough to open your ears, because
“This peoples’ ears have grown dull, that they may not hear…”
If I am a “Protestant”, it is simply against every false establishment, including the myriad false establishments in the “Protestant” churches, as well. 1 Th 5:21
But to go on being so thick that you cannot receive correction, doesn’t the Bible have something to say about these people: a person who thinks they are wise is worse off than a fool, because at least a fool has hope of being corrected, but a person who is wise in their own conceits, it is impossible to correct them, so I advise you not to seek or receive praise from men, even the so-called “establishment” of the Catholic Church. God’s Kingdom is NOT of this world; it is a spiritual Kingdom; flesh and blood will not inherit it; only those who hunger for it and who enter it by the narrow gate of the truth.
D
dan1el
Guest
Right, whereas Jesus was sent by God, we are sent AS HE WAS SENT, but we are sent by Jesus.
“If you abide in My words, you will abide in My love, as I abide in My Father’s words, and abide in His love.”
We bring people to Jesus; Jesus brings people to God.
A
Arglaze
Guest
I don’t see the connection in the first phrase and the verse quoted, but I understand what you mean. And I agree.
Just remember in context of what I’m saying. The office of Christ as Mediator vs. our responsibility as kingdom of priests are not the same. Yes we point others to Christ, but our merits don’t qualify us to stand between men and God to atone and forgive their sins.
Atonement for sins is the mediation work that links us to God. Only Jesus spilled blood for this, and its in those merits that He can mediate. That’s what the Book of Hebrews is about. read it.
C
Chancellor
Guest
M
mercygate
Guest
This kind of confusion is a result of a “low” doctrine of the Church. Catholics hold a “high” doctrine of the Church. For us, the Church is of divine institution with the divine mandate to “make disciples of all nations.”
In order to dismiss the Catholic notion of the Church as the Body of Christ, commissioned until the end of the age to carry His saving work to all nations, one must think of the Church *merely *as an “organization” or “institution” or caricature it as “buildings.”
One can then invent a nebulous non-incarnational ecclesiology that specifically rejects any connection between the “incarnate” Church visible on earth and replace it with an “invisible” church of “true” believers.
Catholic ecclesiology (cf*. The C**atechism*) includes under the salvific ministry of Christ ***through ***His Church, those who through no fault of their own may not be visibly united to “the organizaton.” Nevertheless, because Christ’s Church is incarnational; it *does *have a visible and organizational aspect. Just as Christ had an identifiable physical body when He walked among us as a man, so His Church in time has an identifiable, physical body. The mystical Body is not lmited to “the organization” but “the organization” is the place where Christ’s Church is made visible on HIS terms. The New Testament Church was a highly connected and visible proposition, just as the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches are today.
The Catholic Church has the assurance of being in Communion with the Apostle upon whom Jesus promised to build His Church. Not “a” church: not “churches”: *MY *church.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
LOL - yeah that’s why God made Catholics speak Latin - to confuse the rest of the world. haha
By the way if “The Church” did not have a real physical presence with a front door to knock on why do you suppose Luther nailed his 95 thesis on the church door rather than just send up smoke signals to “the pope”?
The answer is:
Matthew 18:15-18
15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established. 17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
For those who believe in a hidden spiritual Church I suppose you can tie message to balloons and float your complaints to “the church” and hope some pigeon or something grabs it and gets it to the right place. You do have it partially right though though. There is a spiritual dimension to the Church called “The Church Triumphant” but these are the saints who area in heaven (or waiting in purgatory) and you can “float” them prayers for help but on earth it is the apostolic succession that has the authority to resolve earthly affairs.
But for those who believe and trust in God’s Word take it to the person who God ordained to have the authority to resolve these matters: priests, bishops and popes as the case warrants the level of authority.
James
E
East_and_West
Guest
Wow. You actually believe that God appointed the reformers. How do you know this? This is an extra biblical idea and you claim to believe in sola scriptura. Furthermore, why didn’t God rescue the church 1400 years earlier?So we didn’t … God anointed the reformers to rescue Christianity – and they did. Imagine the world if the reformation never happened? It would be a horrible place.
Thank you God for Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the rest! Thank you for continuing to bless us with good theologians like N.T Wright. Thank you for America and giving us the freedom to worship you without the fear of an oppressive church. God is great!
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Absolutely!
Simply stated – nothing of such magnitude occurs outside of God’s will. And of course it worked. Not only did the reformation produce an explosion in great theology, but it forced the Catholic Church to change its abusive practices (even though some Catholics are still deluded into thinking this isn’t true).
You ask why the God didn’t rescue the RCC 1,400 years earlier – the answer of course is simple. They weren’t doing things like charging the poor to free their dead grandparents and infant children from purgatory. I have never chastised the first Roman Christians – they were saints just as the first Jewish, Greek, and Turkish Christians were. Many of them died for their faith – you don’t get any greater than that!
I would also argue that humanity is constantly evolving the way God wants us to – in support of this theory I simply say how could we not be moving in the direction God wants us to go? To say otherwise is to posit that God isn’t the sovereign creator and ruler of the universe. Furthermore, theology is constantly evolving – sometimes for the better other times for the worse (but the general direction is for the better). The ancients used religion to justify all sorts of practices that by today’s standards we would find aberrant (if not criminal). God works everything out for the good. What a great God we have!
M
mercygate
Guest
The Reformation (God forgive us all) went from attempting to change abuses in practice – nobody denies that much needed reform; when is any Christian body NOT in need of reform? – to creating new doctrines that abuse the Faith “once for all delivered to the saints.”
E
East_and_West
Guest
Wow. your view of history is not only silly. Its actually reached the point of delusional.Absolutely!
Simply stated – nothing of such magnitude occurs outside of God’s will. And of course it worked. Not only did the reformation produce an explosion in great theology, but it forced the Catholic Church to change its abusive practices (even though some Catholics are still deluded into thinking this isn’t true).
You ask why the God didn’t rescue the RCC 1,400 years earlier – the answer of course is simple. They weren’t doing things like charging the poor to free their dead grandparents and infant children from purgatory. I have never chastised the first Roman Christians – they were saints just as the first Jewish, Greek, and Turkish Christians were. Many of them died for their faith – you don’t get any greater than that!
I would also argue that humanity is constantly evolving the way God wants us to – in support of this theory I simply say how could we not be moving in the direction God wants us to go? To say otherwise is to posit that God isn’t the sovereign creator and ruler of the universe. Furthermore, theology is constantly evolving – sometimes for the better other times for the worse (but the general direction is for the better). The ancients used religion to justify all sorts of practices that by today’s standards we would find aberrant (if not criminal). God works everything out for the good. What a great God we have!
As for an explosion in theology, what you are really talking about is innovation in theology, an attack on the “faith once and for all delivered unto the saints.”
A
adstrinity
Guest
You cannot see the connection between what the poster said and the quote given, but, you agree with what they are saying and you agree with what they are saying
COMPARED TO
The Catholic posters on here have made statements, backed it up with Scripture, but, not only do you disagree, but, they explain it more, and you STILL don’t understand.
You are so preconcieved in yourself that you don’t even have to understand other people to believe they are right as long as they are arguing against the Catholic Church.
- Status