How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?

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The Reformation (God forgive us all) went from attempting to change abuses in practice – nobody denies that much needed reform. When is any Christian body NOT in need of reform? – to creating new doctrines that abuse the Faith “once for all delivered to the saints.”
I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying here mercygate – but it sounds like a rebuke of the idea of OSAS (and similar doctrines). I’m not going to act as an apologist for OSAS (since I personally do not exactly agree with it) – however, perseverance of the saints is not an invention of Calvin; it does indeed enjoy sound Scriptural support. For instance:

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:31-39).


These are some of the most glorious words in all of Scripture. Who can separate us from the love of God? Will threat of death, the devil, or anything in all of creation separate us from God? I for the life of me cannot understand why anyone would object to this profoundly wonderful doctrine that Paul gives us.

It is not to say that one can have a fleeting faith one day, change their mind the next, and have an expectation of salvation. This is a gross misconstruction of this doctrine. Paul is talking to real Christians, not the “almost Christian” (as Wesley would say).

I’d be glad to explain the merits of this doctrine and what it really means and stands for if anyone is “truly” interested in listening; but I suspect there are too many preconceived notions of it for a fruitful dialog.
 
Wow. your view of history is not only silly. Its actually reached the point of delusional.
As for an explosion in theology, what you are really talking about is innovation in theology, an attack on the “faith once and for all delivered unto the saints.”
Explain to me exactly how my statements are delusional? I’d be willing to bet I won’t see a sensible response from you. Just more baseless hot air. There is no falsity in anything I’ve stated.
 
let me save some time – I’ve very aware of the RCC view of this concept. The communion of saints includes those both alive and dead – the physically dead saints are alive in Christ (in heaven). We collectively compromise the body of Christ. Up to here I agree – but I won’t follow the rabbit trail down the road to veneration or the idea of intercession. It’s improper, has pagan roots, and therefore it’s heretical.
O.K then if you agree to that point…that there is a bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are committed followers of Christ. We collectively compromise the Body of Christ, let’s throw in for good measure we are branches connected to Christ the vine, than we are also connected to each other.
St. Paul emphasizes this unity in Christ’s body in 1 cor. 12:12-27 and in Romans 12; 4-16.
Just as Paul asked fellow believers(saints) to pray for him (Rom 15:30 Col 4:3 1 Thess 5:25 Eph 6:18-19 Thess 3:1), now we can ask Paul and the other saints in heaven to pray for us. I don’t think that sounds pagan.
No reply?
 
Lets look at intercession of the Saints in reverse. I don’t think any one here will deny that many things that God does, He does through his Angels. And, according to Scripture, when we die we will be “equal to Angels, and are Sons of God” Luke 20:36. Quoted from the mouth of Jesus. Now, he, according to most everybody, does not mean we will become angels, but rather counted among the ranks. Therefore, it is logical that just as he sends Angels to do His work, He will send the Saints. Angels also talk directly with God, and it can be assumed that they ask God for things, as Jesus says that we shouldn’t despise “one of these little ones: for I say to , that their angels always see the face of the Father in Heaven” Matthew 18:10. Presumably the Angels bring before God the troubles of their Charges, and plead for God to take action. Why then can we not assume Saints to do the same?
 
Wow. You actually believe that God appointed the reformers. How do you know this? This is an extra biblical idea and you claim to believe in sola scriptura. Furthermore, why didn’t God rescue the church 1400 years earlier?
And where do you get your inspiration for revolt against God’s appointed authority to ever be justified? I hope it was not from the Jews who worshiped the golden calf when Moses went up to Mt. Horeb to receive The Law. We know what happened to them - God commanded His representatives to kill each and every one of them to a man, woman and child. Such is the fate of those who try to usurp divine authority or justify their own corruption. Even David respected Saul when he was legitimate King but corrupt.

God have pity on the day of chastisement on those who think themselves self righteous enough to challenge God’s authority on earth since that is a direct challenge to God Himself. Do you what happens to those who are anathemetized? Hint - its not very pretty and you might want to research it.

James
 
So we didn’t … God anointed the reformers to rescue Christianity – and they did. Imagine the world if the reformation never happened? It would be a horrible place.

Thank you God for Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the rest! Thank you for continuing to bless us with good theologians like N.T Wright. Thank you for America and giving us the freedom to worship you without the fear of an oppressive church. God is great!

:amen:
And where do you get your inspiration for revolt against God’s appointed authority to ever be justified? I hope it was not from the Jews who worshiped the golden calf when Moses went up to Mt. Horeb to receive The Law. We know what happened to them - God commanded His representatives to kill each and every one of them to a man, woman and child. Such is the fate of those who try to usurp divine authority or justify their own corruption. Even David respected Saul when he was legitimate King but corrupt.

God have pity on the day of chastisement on those who think themselves self righteous enough to challenge God’s authority on earth since that is a direct challenge to God Himself. Do you have a clue what happens to those who are anathemetized? Hint - its not very pretty and you might want to research it.

James
 
Absolutely!

Simply stated – nothing of such magnitude occurs outside of God’s will. And of course it worked. Not only did the reformation produce an explosion in great theology, but it forced the Catholic Church to change its abusive practices (even though some Catholics are still deluded into thinking this isn’t true).

You ask why the God didn’t rescue the RCC 1,400 years earlier – the answer of course is simple. They weren’t doing things like charging the poor to free their dead grandparents and infant children from purgatory. I have never chastised the first Roman Christians – they were saints just as the first Jewish, Greek, and Turkish Christians were. Many of them died for their faith – you don’t get any greater than that!

I would also argue that humanity is constantly evolving the way God wants us to – in support of this theory I simply say how could we not be moving in the direction God wants us to go? To say otherwise is to posit that God isn’t the sovereign creator and ruler of the universe. Furthermore, theology is constantly evolving – sometimes for the better other times for the worse (but the general direction is for the better). The ancients used religion to justify all sorts of practices that by today’s standards we would find aberrant (if not criminal). God works everything out for the good. What a great God we have!

:blessyou:
Sola you have some serious problems in your reasoning facilities. Good gracious.

Yes it is true that NOTHING man can do will cause Divine Providence to be upset - nothing. But do not think for an instant that period of time where evil takes hold to push humanity down the path of evil and heresy and false teaching is evidence of God’s will. That is a simple fallacy born of ignorance about God’s nature. God only PERMITS the actions of heretics and evil. But in no way does the fact that the sun comes up each day for evil and heretical people to live another day give creedance that God objectively approves of the status quo. That would be like saying a murderer that gets away it with it is somehow justified in God’s eyes simply because God did not let anyone catch him and put him in jail. Nonsense. Use some common sense please.

Review OT history and see the many times that the Jews fell away and were chastised for it and later came back and repented and God took them back over and over again. This is God’s nature - slow to anger quick in mercy.

Simply because the Protestant Revolution “happened” does not mean it prevails. In fact all evidence is pointing to it being an utter failure as protestantism shatters into 10’s of thousands of competing doctrines against itself. A thing easily predictable as a fruit of anarchy. It is only time before God will use history to utterly cut off Protestants and toss the dead branches into the fire to be burned or directly intervene with a divine global chastisement. Normally we can expect both to happen. That is man will harm himself gravely as a result of the heresy and then God will then inflict a stern and heavy chastisement that will destroy heresy and evil in a large scale global effect (ref. The Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, The Plagues, Famine etc.).

Bottom line - Protestantism is toast in the long run and only a remnant will be saved by severe sorrow, repentance and before that by effective Catholic evangelization.

Whether you realize it or not God has called you here to be evangelized into Catholicism and be saved. Take heed you do not miss this opportunity since this is a very narrow period of Mercy. God’s wrath is soon to step in to make it a period of severe Judgement. All will be given one final chance of Mercy - but after that its going to be literally hell on earth for some people.

James
 
Explain to me exactly how my statements are delusional? I’d be willing to bet I won’t see a sensible response from you. Just more baseless hot air. There is no falsity in anything I’ve stated.
I am not sure how what I have said is hot air when history is on my side. It was Cardinal Newman, the great convert, who said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a protestant.”
If you look at the ECFs, you will find that the Early Church had a centralized authority in Rome (Iraneaus). The Early Church was sacramental. Those Christians believed in the real presence (Ignaitus, Iraneaus, Justyn Martyr) believed in Baptismal regeneration (see any given Church Father), praticed confirmation/crismation, anointing of the sick, etc was liturgical (the didache, Justin Martyr, the divine liturgy of St. James, etc), prayed for the dead (see any liturgy) , had the three offices of holy orders (bishop, priest, and deacon) see st. ignatius, believed in Holy Tradition (see any ECF) handed on by the Apostles, etc, etc, etc. They did NOT look like Protestants at all. So if the early Church looked like this, why did God wait to rescue the Church from its “heresy” for 1300 or 1400 years?
 
So we didn’t … God anointed the reformers to rescue Christianity – and they did.
Hmm … I’m not sure what to think of that claim.
Imagine the world if the reformation never happened? It would be a horrible place.
I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is in a much better state now than it was right before the Reformation, but it wouldn’t give the Reformation too much of the credit.
Thank you God for Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the rest! Thank you for continuing to bless us with good theologians like N.T Wright. Thank you for America and giving us the freedom to worship you without the fear of an oppressive church. God is great!

:amen:
Well I agree with you on the religious freedom part, anyhow. 🙂
 
You are trying to compare diety with a mere human or do you believe that Mary is diety as well?
No. We do not believe Mary to be a deity. We believe Mary to be a created being. A creature. Her role is important because through her, the Word became flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
Which by the way, I will note that there doesn’t seem to be any patristic writings referencing the Assumption and, importantly, it doesn’t appear until the 6th century in a work that was condemned by Pope Gelasius (tractate something or other).

Not even Catholic.com has patristic references to it. I cannot find any either.
Actually there is. The basis for it is from the Dormition of Mary or falling asleep. While the Dormition focuses on the death of Mary, it does mention that Jesus descended to earth and took Mary into heaven. The Eastern Christians believe this.
 
Sola Scriptura:
Even after the Apostles passed the Apostolic fathers (like Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius) never served under a Pop0e
One of those Early Apostolic Father is the Pope. Clement of Rome. The forth successor of St. Peter. LMAO
 
One of those Early Apostolic Father is the Pope. Clement of Rome. The forth successor of St. Peter. LMAO
How come he never referred to himself as such in any of his epistles? Seems odd that he would omit the fact that he was the leader of the entire Christian world? Some in the RCC view 1 Clement as providing some indication of primacy at Rome – however, anyone who reads this work will find this claim to be absurd. There was no episcopacy established at this early point (although Ignatius and Polycarp were viewed as “bishops” not all churches were governed under this structure, see below) – indeed there is not even evidence establishing Clement as a bishop of Rome (let alone a Pope) – although I personally have great respect for Clement.

I quote Clement:

The Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojourning at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

One church leader writing to another church & its leadership. Certainly the church was united in spirit and doctrine (scripture). However, there was no central leadership and no primacy at Rome at this early point.

For ye did all things without respect of persons, and walked in the commandments of God, being obedient to those who had the rule over you, and giving all fitting honour to the presbyters among you.

At this early point some churches were still governed under a Presbyterian form of church government (while other areas had a bishop).

Indeed Catholics should read the great epistles of Clement more often. You can truly tell he was a disciple of Paul. He understood that we are saved by grace – and not of ourselves (unlike the RCC of today with its adoption of semi-pelagian soteriology). If Clement were alive today and saw that you guys were venerating icons and crowned Mary a queen of heaven – I can assure you he would be the loudest Protestant of them all!
 
Yeah, just like Jesus opposed the Jewish “authorities”, and spoke the truth against their twisted misunderstandings and reliance on the words of men, “… For He taught as someone with authority (not as the scribes, who had no power or understanding of true Scripture).”

Yet no one has answered me on the wise that Peter himself, who you “claim” as your “father” of your church, himself had to be corrected by Paul the Apostle, a man who never walked with Jesus, but to whom Jesus was revealed through the “Sola Scriptures”: “For I did not consult with flesh and blood…”

What do you say about Peter having to be corrected; that he was “to be condemned” ?? What??

I guess that you are IMMUNE to error, right? Yes, ofcourse you are: you are greater than Peter, who himself was able to commit error!
All Praise be to the Catholic Church!

Sounds more like “if we admit that we made a mistake, then how will people listen to anything else we have to say?” rather than putting faith in God, once again you resort to protecting yourself, just like when the Church ordered the murder of Muslims, instead of dying, like Jesus said.
 
No. We do not believe Mary to be a deity. We believe Mary to be a created being. A creature. Her role is important because through her, the Word became flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Funny, someone else posted that she was an eternal being, eternally existing before time.
 
I quote Clement:

For ye did all things without respect of persons, and walked in the commandments of God, being obedient to those who had the rule over you, and giving all fitting honour to the presbyters among you.
For a conversation made leader to leader it sure sounds to me like the words “being obedient to those who had the rule over you, and giving all fitting honour to the presbyters among you” is explicitly recognizing a hierarchical relationship to me. This is exactly how Catholic Dioceses are run - a bishop over a set of parishes each with a presiding priest (or with a deacon and a visiting priest) and a staff of competent and senior laiety supporting the ordained priest/clergy at each level.

It’s a very flat structure with a lot of breath. The pope is first bishop among equals as the “Servant of the Servants of God” and a collection of semi-independent bishops all overseeing/serving a collection of parishes, priests and communities assigned to them.

James
 
Actually there is. The basis for it is from the Dormition of Mary or falling asleep. While the Dormition focuses on the death of Mary, it does mention that Jesus descended to earth and took Mary into heaven. The Eastern Christians believe this.
There’s a reason why this (and other similar documents) aren’t part of canon. The early church recognized the authorship was dubious. Indeed most of these apocryphal works are inconsistent with the New Testament (and hence cannot be viewed as legitimate Apostolic works). There were many rumors and different writings floating around during this early period – but if you would like reliable information look to the writings of Paul and John, look the writings of Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius. Do not look to works that have been unanimously debunked by scholars.

This is what Irenaeus did when he put the Marian freight train in motion. Slowly, one faulty doctrine after the other, you’ve built Mary up to a role alien to the Gospel writers, Paul, and the Apostolic Fathers. If Mary were the queen of heaven, a co-mediator and co-redeemer, the Ark of the Covenant, etc. you would think Paul would have referred to her as something more than “woman” – you would think the Apostolic Fathers would have mentioned her more than simply to note the virgin birth. You would think John (who was her caretaker and lived far longer than Paul or Peter) might have written a word or two about Mary if she were to occupy such a critical role in the economy of salvation. It is clear to anyone without a vested interest in defending this fallacious doctrine that Mary was none of these things.

She was blessed among women, filled with grace at the annunciation to prepare her – both body and soul for the incarnation, and her glorious name will always be praised in the words of eternal scripture. However, you do her no honor by juxtaposing her in a role reserved solely for her son. There is no co-mediator, there is one mediator, there is no co-redeemer, there is but one redeemer. Only one man died for our sins & that is how we are redeemed. Anything contrary to these truths is purely heretical.
 
How come he never referred to himself as such in any of his epistles? Seems odd that he would omit the fact that he was the leader of the entire Christian world? Some in the RCC view 1 Clement as providing some indication of primacy at Rome – however, anyone who reads this work will find this claim to be absurd. There was no episcopacy established at this early point (although Ignatius and Polycarp were viewed as “bishops” not all churches were governed under this structure, see below) – indeed there is not even evidence establishing Clement as a bishop of Rome (let alone a Pope) – although I personally have great respect for Clement.
Short answer: Clement never refer to himself as Pope because in those days, the term Pope was never used until the third Century. It started in the Eastern Churches I believe in Egypt. There are Patriarchs today in Eastern Orthodox who have patriarchs with the title Pope.

It was not until around 600 A.D. that the title Pope was address to the Bishop of Rome.

The Pope or Papacy is the office of Peter. In Christian history, Clement of Rome is referred to as the third Bishop of Rome. Before him was Cletus, or Anacletus (same person), and before Anactetus was Linus and before Linus was Peter, the Apostle.

The Apostles never carried the title bishops. The title bishops were addressed to their successor. That is why Esubius and other Church historian called Clement of Rome, third Bishop of Rome, the second is Anacletus, and the first is Linus.

Wikipedia notes;

Tradition identifies him as the Clement that Paul mentioned in Philippians 4:3 as a fellow laborer in Christ,[3] and the mere apposition of the name with a location at one time in Philippi has never warranted saying that he must be a Philippian, as Paul didn’t grow up in a place he ministered at, merely for being stationed there.

I also like to add that the authority Clement had in his time was commonly know because in those days. Many of the Patriarchial Churches believe Rome had primacy over all the other Churches. When disputes arises in Corinth, Clement of Rome wrote a letter to Corinths.

and Sola Scriptura,

I read all of Clement’s Letters, and it only affirm my belief and what the Church teaches concerning the Primacy of Peter’s Office.
 
For a conversation made leader to leader it sure sounds to me like the words “being obedient to those who had the rule over you, and giving all fitting honour to the presbyters among you” is explicitly recognizing a hierarchical relationship to me. This is exactly how Catholic Dioceses are run - a bishop over a set of parishes each with a presiding priest (or with a deacon and a visiting priest) and a staff of competent and senior laiety supporting the ordained priest/clergy at each level.

It’s a very flat structure with a lot of breath. The pope is first bishop among equals as the “Servant of the Servants of God” and a collection of semi-independent bishops all overseeing/serving a collection of parishes, priests and communities assigned to them.

James
Moreover, in any diocese there may be several bishops but only one Bishop of the Diocese. So even the attempt to make the presence of more than one bishop sound like an ecclesial “republic” won’t wash.
 
In addition, in those days, the primacy of Peter was often address as, “Roman See,” Chair of St. Peter…

Furthermore the ECF writes,

St. Cyprian
In the middle of the third century St. Cyprian expressly terms the Roman See the Chair of St. Peter, saying that Cornelius has succeeded to “the place of Fabian which is the place of Peter” (Ep 55:8; cf. 59:14).

Firmilian of Caesarea
Firmilian of Caesarea notices that Stephen claimed to decide the controversy regarding rebaptism on the ground that he held the succession from Peter (Cyprian, Ep. 75:17). He does not deny the claim: yet certainly, had he been able, he would have done so. Thus in 250 the Roman episcopate of Peter was admitted by those best able to know the truth, not merely at Rome but in the churches of Africa and of Asia Minor.

Tertullian
In the first quarter of the century (about 220) Tertullian (De Pud. 21) mentions Callistus’s claim that Peter’s power to forgive sins had descended in a special manner to him. Had the Roman Church been merely founded by Peter and not reckoned him as its first bishop, there could have been no ground for such a contention. Tertullian, like Firmilian, had every motive to deny the claim. Moreover, he had himself resided at Rome, and would have been well aware if the idea of a Roman episcopate of Peter had been, as is contended by its opponents, a novelty dating from the first years of the third century, supplanting the older tradition according to which Peter and Paul were co-founders, and Linus first bishop.

Hippolytus
About the same period, Hippolytus (for Lightfoot is surely right in holding him to be the author of the first part of the “Liberian Catalogue” – “Clement of Rome”, 1:259) reckons Peter in the list of Roman bishops.

“Adversus Marcionem”
We have moreover a poem, “Adversus Marcionem”, written apparently at the same period, in which Peter is said to have passed on to Linus “the chair on which he himself had sat” (P.L., II 1077).

St. Irenaeus
These witnesses bring us to the beginning of the third century. In the second century we cannot look for much evidence. With the exception of Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement of Alexandria, all the writers whose works we possess are apologists against either Jews or pagans. In works of such a character there was no reason to refer to such a matter as Peter’s Roman episcopate.

Irenaeus, however, supplies us with a cogent argument. In two passages (Adv. haer. 1:27:1, and 3:4:3) he speaks of Hyginus as ninth Bishop of Rome, thus employing an enumeration which involves the inclusion of Peter as first bishop (Lightfoot was undoubtedly wrong in supposing that there was any doubt as to the correctness of the reading in the first of these passages. In 3:4:3, the Latin version, it is true, gives “octavus”; but the Greek text as cited by Eusebius reads enatos.

Irenaeus we know visited Rome in 177. At this date, scarcely more than a century after the death of St. Peter, he may well have come in contact with men whose fathers had themselves spoken to the Apostle. The tradition thus supported must be regarded as beyond all legitimate doubt.

Lightfoot’s suggestion (Clement 1:64), that it had its origin in the Clementine romance, has proved singularly unfortunate. For it is now recognized that this work belongs not to the second, but to the fourth century. Nor is there the slightest ground for the assertion that the language of Irenaeus, 3:3:3, implies that Peter and Paul enjoyed a divided episcopate at Rome – an arrangement utterly unknown to the Church at any period. He does, it is true, speak of the two Apostles as together handing on the episcopate to Linus. But this expression is explained by the purpose of his argument, which is to vindicate against the Gnostics the validity of the doctrine taught in the Roman Church. Hence he is naturally led to lay stress on the fact that that Church inherited the teaching of both the great Apostles. Epiphanius (“Haer.” 27:6) would indeed seem to suggest the divided episcopate; but he has apparently merely misunderstood the words of Irenaeus.

Those who succeed Peter in Rome succeed him also in the supreme headship
History bears complete testimony that from the very earliest times the Roman See has ever claimed the supreme headship, and that that headship has been freely acknowledged by the universal Church. We shall here confine ourselves to the consideration of the evidence afforded by the first three centuries.

St. Clement
The first witness is St. Clement, a disciple of the Apostles, who, after Linus and Anacletus, succeeded St. Peter as the fourth in the list of popes. In his “Epistle to the Corinthians”, written in 95 or 96, he bids them receive back the bishops whom a turbulent faction among them had expelled. “If any man”, he says, “should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger” (Ep. 59). Moreover, he bids them “render obedience unto the things written by us through the Holy Spirit”. The tone of authority which inspires the latter appears so clearly that Lightfoot did not hesitate to speak of it as “the first step towards papal domination” (Clement 1:70). Thus, at the very commencement of church history, before the last survivor of the Apostles had passed away, we find a Bishop of Rome, himself a disciple of St. Peter, intervening in the affairs of another Church and claiming to settle the matter by a decision spoken under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Such a fact admits of one explanation alone. It is that in the days when the Apostolic teaching was yet fresh in men’s minds the universal Church recognized in the Bishop of Rome the office of supreme head.

St. Ignatius of Antioch

A few years later (about 107) St. Ignatius of Antioch, in the opening of his letter to the Roman Church, refers to its presiding over all other Churches. He addresses it as "presiding over the brotherhood of love [prokathemene tes agapes] The expression, as Funk rightly notes, is grammatically incompatible with the translation advocated by some non-Catholic writers, “pre-eminent in works of love”.
 
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