How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?

[mangy_dog]

Yes it does. The though of anyone who honestly believes in their heart of hearts and in their soul that Mary is co-redemptrix with Christ really bothers me and it should concern them deeply.

CentralFLJames has said it best.

This has been gone over and over and over again on this and other threads.

There is no worse blindness than that of a person who covers their eyes and says they can’t see.

Protestanst will continue to protest until the day of the Warning.

Hopefully they’ll remove the “blinders” and it won’t take a Permanent Miracle to open their eyes and bring 'em back to the one, true church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first Pope…263 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI.

I truly pray that all christians will return to their Catholic faith…before the Chastisement.

 

[Sailka]

Just wanted to know how you can believe in the Marian dogmas of Catholicism without it interferring dramatically with the Scriptures?

All 4 main beliefs of the Catholic Church are from the first Century, and are highly Biblical also, as deverything Catholic is. Please see latest postings, This site.
Live in Jesus
Tony

 

[cazayoux]

my question remains. can i go to heaven if i dont believe that Mary was sinless, forever virgin and that she never died? and when i say believe i dont mean i dont understand or i think it is true but refuse to accept it.

Why reject truth?
Truth is not a thing it is a person.
To seek truth is to seek Jesus.

What does scripture say is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Would you say it is okay to pick and choose which bits of truth to accept or reject?

You trust the church to tell you what scripture is, why not trust the same church regarding Mary? The bible doesn’t oppose anything taught about Mary.

michel

 

[Sailka]

:byzsoc:

I apologize if I’m repeating someone, as I haven’t read all the posts.

1 Timothy 2:1-3 explains 2:5.

Just because Jesus is the one mediator between God and man, doesn’t mean that no-one else can mediate on our behalf. Subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. He invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator. Although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Tim 2:1
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior

Paul is appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator.

Why?

Because it’s God’s will.

                                                                                           Thank You very much!            Live in Jesus             Tony             :amen:

 

[Arglaze]

We could spend a lot of time exchanging historical data, and I’ll try to stick to the Word of God, just for this space’s sake.

The thief in the cross could not have gone to paradise with Jesus that day, and lets assume that he died (though the scriptures don’t say that)
But I’ll assume he died, since you already believe it as a fact. Jesus himself did not go to paradise that day, he just went to hell (which literally translated is sheol, or tomb, or grave to describe the state of the dead), and his going to paradise did not happen till Sunday, on the day that he resurrected.

Jesus himself, speaking right after his resurrection, said he had not gone to His Father yet.

John 20:16-17 “Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.”

Here Jesus himself said that he had not yet ascended to his Father. This is after he resurrected. So Jesus himself did not go to paradise the day he died, unless you consider the grave paradise, and if you do, why would he tell Mary he had not yet gone to his Father?

Jesus allowed his disciples to touch him after he had presented himself to his Father by going to heaven.

John 20:27 “Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”

The Scripture then is obvious, the statement to the thief on the cross is a typo of translation when you look at the scriptures in the right context. If we read it in the original context of the language,

Jesus said “Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (future reference)

With this in mind, we can clearly see that after Jesus died he did not go to paradise till after he resurrected on Sunday, somewhere between the time he saw Mary and the time he saw the Apostles. And he did not lie to the thief on the cross either. The simple fact is that according to Jesus’ own words is that he had not gone to paradise that day. The thief simply died in Christ and its awaiting his second coming in the dust of the earth just like all the saints that will resurrect in that great day (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Someone said this point I presented was refuted, but I saw no argument withstood it.
God strongly prohibits speaking to the dead (saints and not saints), king Saul is an example. When you die, the breath of life goes back to the Maker. Breath of Life and Soul are not the same thing. When God made man, He breathed life into his nostrils and he became a living soul. Take apart breath and body, you have a dead soul. That’s why the resurrection exists, so God can give back to us life.
With all due respect to my Catholic Brethren, any claim of Mary, or a saint going to heaven must be backed by the Holy Scriptures just like all other records of saints going to heaven while alive (i.e. Enoch, Elijah) or after being resurrected (I.e. Moses, those resurrected with Christ on the 1st day). If there is no Record, then it is no more than an assumption, and speculations do not build the Church, even if taught by those in authority in the Church. John, who took care of Mary, records nothing on her death. If anyone wants to believe that she was assumed into heaven, then that person must admit he/she is following a doctrine that someone in authority without scripture backing it has taught. This is following tradition, but its not in the Scriptures, so don’t expect those who follow the Word only to accept that.

Case in point, I see nothing wrong with asking a friend or anyone to pray for anyone as long as they are alive. But there’s a problem in thinking anyone other than Jesus can mediate between God and man. Only He who spilled His blood for salvation is able, if not then anyone’s death would have been good enough, but only Jesus is found worthy.

As far as the thief in the cross, it hasn’t been refuted.

 

[Sailka]

Someone said this point I presented was refuted, but I saw no argument withstood it.
God strongly prohibits speaking to the dead (saints and not saints), king Saul is an example. When you die, the breath of life goes back to the Maker. Breath of Life and Soul are not the same thing. When God made man, He breathed life into his nostrils and he became a living soul. Take apart breath and body, you have a dead soul. That’s why the resurrection exists, so God can give back to us life.
With all due respect to my Catholic Brethren, any claim of Mary, or a saint going to heaven must be backed by the Holy Scriptures just like all other records of saints going to heaven while alive (i.e. Enoch, Elijah) or after being resurrected (I.e. Moses, those resurrected with Christ on the 1st day). If there is no Record, then it is no more than an assumption, and speculations do not build the Church, even if taught by those in authority in the Church. John, who took care of Mary, records nothing on her death. If anyone wants to believe that she was assumed into heaven, then that person must admit he/she is following a doctrine that someone in authority without scripture backing it has taught. This is following tradition, but its not in the Scriptures, so don’t expect those who follow the Word only to accept that.

Case in point, I see nothing wrong with asking a friend or anyone to pray for anyone as long as they are alive. But there’s a problem in thinking anyone other than Jesus can mediate between God and man. Only He who spilled His blood for salvation is able, if not then anyone’s death would have been good enough, but only Jesus is found worthy.

As far as the thief in the cross, it hasn’t been refuted.

                                                                                           Good morning, Arglaze.  A couple quick answers before breakfast  :)  Am skinny and starved  ;) 

                                                                                           The Soul never dies.   I've never heard anyone say that it does.   And the Bible by no means has everything in it.  It so says. That is why   Our Lord gave us the Ideal 1.1 Billion Roman Catholic Church, and 300 million Eastern and Orthodox.
                                                                                                     
                                                                                           And I never heard of any one praying to a corpse. No reason to. Giant waste of effort and time

                                                                                           And the world knew of the Blessed Virgin.  No one ever thought she was buried  anywhere In her time.     She was obviously Assumed bodily into heaven, as   Our Lord  and Moses and Elias were.  

                                                                                           Live in Jesus.     Have a great day.       :thumbsup:

Tony

 

[ryanoneil]

:byzsoc:

                                                                                           Thank You very much!            Live in Jesus             Tony             :amen:

Thank You. I’d also add that 1 Tim 2:1 includes asking Mary and the saints in heaven.
A prayer warrior in heaven is just as acceptable as one on earth.

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 1 Tim 2:1

 

[SIA]

All 4 main beliefs of the Catholic Church are from the first Century, and are highly Biblical also, as deverything Catholic is. Please see latest postings, This site.
Live in Jesus
Tony

First off, prove that any one of them come from the first century and then show me chapter and verse where any one of them are in Scripture. I think you are in serious denial my friend. Even Fr. Pacwa from the Society of Jesus says that the Immaculate Conception has to be upheld by sacred tradition because it isn’t found in Scripture.

 

[Sailka]

First off, prove that any one of them come from the first century and then show me chapter and verse where any one of them are in Scripture. I think you are in serious denial my friend. Even Fr. Pacwa from the Society of Jesus says that the Immaculate Conception has to be upheld by sacred tradition because it isn’t found in Scripture.

                                                                                           Don't have time for full reply, but Suffice:     all 4  were  recognized, known first Century, and Said  or  suggested in Bible. The "Queen of Heaven"  is OT  prophecy, suggesting generic  co-redemptrix, does it not?   Or Equivalent?        
               Live in Jesus          Tony

 

[mercygate]

First off, prove that any one of them come from the first century and then show me chapter and verse where any one of them are in Scripture. I think you are in serious denial my friend. Even Fr. Pacwa from the Society of Jesus says that the Immaculate Conception has to be upheld by sacred tradition because it isn’t found in Scripture.

Exactly. You don’t understand athe Immaculate Conception until you understand Original Sin – both concepts being tied together and neither being specifically articulated in their full form in the Apostolic age.

As with much “developed” doctrine (which is really development of our UNDERSTANDING of doctrine), each clarification is like a pebble in a pond that sends ever widening ripples outwards in a greater circle of understanding.

 

[cazayoux]

And the world knew of the Blessed Virgin. No one ever thought she was buried anywhere In her time. She was obviously Assumed bodily into heaven, as Our Lord and Moses and Elias were.

Actually, I believe there is a tomb suspected to have been hers.
But no matter … the Church does not state that she did or did not die.
She states that ‘at the end of her earthly life …’

So we don’t know if she died and then was assumed or if, before she died, she was assumed.

The point was that she WAS assumed… and in no way does this go against scripture.

In fact, scripture gives us examples of others that were assumed.

michel

 

[SIA]

Actually, I believe there is a tomb suspected to have been hers.
But no matter … the Church does not state that she did or did not die.
michel

To state that she was taken into Heaven body and spirit speaks to her not being buried on earth. I’d say the church made that statement clearly.

 

[mercygate]

To state that she was taken into Heaven body and spirit speaks to her not being buried on earth. I’d say the church made that statement clearly.

Since Our Lord was known to have a tomb, we can say with certainty that the identification of a tomb does not in any way address the matter of what happened to the body.

 

[SFC]

I get more and more confused with every post. it turns out that if i follow everybody’s advise i almost have to get a degree in theology to understand why i am to believe certain things. what happened to the simple message of salvation that everybody can understand. i am reminded of how the jewish people added to the Law. i really had a simple question and it is left unanswered. i am to stick with the Bible alone with tells me all around that it is all about Jesus. nothing more and nothing less. God is not going to judge me for something that is not written in his Word.

 

[mercygate]

I get more and more confused with every post. it turns out that if i follow everybody’s advise i almost have to get a degree in theology to understand why i am to believe certain things. what happened to the simple message of salvation that everybody can understand. i am reminded of how the jewish people added to the Law. i really had a simple question and it is left unanswered. i am to stick with the Bible alone with tells me all around that it is all about Jesus. nothing more and nothing less. God is not going to judge me for something that is not written in his Word.

Everything discussed on this thread is “all about Jesus” whether you recognize that or not. Christianity is both simple enough for a child to understand and and too difficult and complex for the greatest human mind to understand because it is about God.

 

[East_and_West]

I get more and more confused with every post. it turns out that if i follow everybody’s advise i almost have to get a degree in theology to understand why i am to believe certain things. what happened to the simple message of salvation that everybody can understand. i am reminded of how the jewish people added to the Law. i really had a simple question and it is left unanswered. i am to stick with the Bible alone with tells me all around that it is all about Jesus. nothing more and nothing less. God is not going to judge me for something that is not written in his Word.

But his word includes more than just that which is written. Rember the command of St. Paul to “hold fast that which was handed on to you, either by word of mouth, or by letter.”
If Protestant had never been created then this whole thing wouldn’t be an issue. It is the man-made religion, protestantism, which creates the problem in the first place.

 

[Sailka]

I get more and more confused with every post. it turns out that if i follow everybody’s advise i almost have to get a degree in theology to understand why i am to believe certain things. what happened to the simple message of salvation that everybody can understand. i am reminded of how the jewish people added to the Law. i really had a simple question and it is left unanswered. i am to stick with the Bible alone with tells me all around that it is all about Jesus. nothing more and nothing less. God is not going to judge me for something that is not written in his Word.

                                                                                           My friend,  "Bible Only"  (Sola Scriptura)  does Not work.  Are about 37,000 Christian sects, with all kinds different, or opposing  beliefs, because of How they read verses.                                 That is why the Lord gave us 10 Commandments and The Church, which is  70%  of all Christians. And was only One Church for first 1500 years, now 37,000, last 500  years.

People forget our Church Fathers Wrote the New Testament. We Know the original languages, and the way people meant when they said things. Is Big advantage in reading the Bible. It was not written 50 years ago in English.
Brother, Timing is Great!!! RCIA Classes have just begun all over the country, explaing the Teachings and Why taught, And the Church, And the Bible, at every Catholic Church. Is to teach people the Faith, if they want to become full Catholics, or just learn What and Why. Is No obligations, and free. Look up the nearest or biggest Catholic Church nearby, and give it a free trial. IS Best way to learn the Why’s and What’s and REASONS for everything.

                                                                                  And  Catholic Church always teaches  by Reason, by Explaining,  by facts.       And the Church has All the Ideal answers to  Every problem in the World, the Lord's way.

And RCIA is taught by highly educated Priest or Deacon, not amateurs.
Give RCIA a try. Its awesome way to learn all the basics, And requirements. With others also eager to learn why, and what. Live in Jesus! Tony

 

[Arglaze]

I get more and more confused with every post. it turns out that if i follow everybody’s advise i almost have to get a degree in theology to understand why i am to believe certain things. what happened to the simple message of salvation that everybody can understand. i am reminded of how the jewish people added to the Law. i really had a simple question and it is left unanswered. i am to stick with the Bible alone with tells me all around that it is all about Jesus. nothing more and nothing less. God is not going to judge me for something that is not written in his Word.

exactly right! I’m glad at least 1 person got it. Forget all the fancy talk and all the complicated man made traditions people make to draw disciples after themselves.

Follow what the simple Word of God teaches, and you’ll find Jesus and eternal life.
Dont follow what men’s traditions or what they say; God will not condemn you for seeking Him in the scriptures because Jesus says the Word gives testimony of Him. Trust no man with the salvation of your soul, just go to God through Christ.

Pray to God and The Spirit and The Word will guide you into all truth,
God bless you

 

[SFC]

                                                                                           My friend,  "Bible Only"  (Sola Scriptura)  does Not work.  Are about 37,000 Christian sects, with all kinds different, or opposing  beliefs, because of How they read verses.                                 That is why the Lord gave us 10 Commandments and The Church, which is  70%  of all Christians. And was only One Church for first 1500 years, now 37,000, last 500  years.

People forget our Church Fathers Wrote the New Testament. We Know the original languages, and the way people meant when they said things. Is Big advantage in reading the Bible. It was not written 50 years ago in English.

I understand what you mean when you say that the Bible can be interpreted incorrectly and any verse isolated can be used to back up the most outrageous claims. Also i have no problem with the traditions of the church, but that tradition has to be backed up by Scripture or at least not be in conflict with it. The base of all tradition should be Scripture because otherwise it turns into a man made religion. I am all for scripture only, and healthy traditions that are born from scripture.

 

[Arglaze]

                                                                                           My friend,  "Bible Only"  (Sola Scriptura)  does Not work.  Are about 37,000 Christian sects, with all kinds different, or opposing  beliefs, because of How they read verses.                                 That is why the Lord gave us 10 Commandments and The Church, which is  70%  of all Christians. And was only One Church for first 1500 years, now 37,000, last 500  years.

People forget our Church Fathers Wrote the New Testament. We Know the original languages, and the way people meant when they said things. Is Big advantage in reading the Bible. It was not written 50 years ago in English.
Brother, Timing is Great!!! RCIA Classes have just begun all over the country, explaing the Teachings and Why taught, And the Church, And the Bible, at every Catholic Church. Is to teach people the Faith, if they want to become full Catholics, or just learn What and Why. Is No obligations, and free. Look up the nearest or biggest Catholic Church nearby, and give it a free trial. IS Best way to learn the Why’s and What’s and REASONS for everything.

                                                                                  And  Catholic Church always teaches  by Reason, by Explaining,  by facts.       And the Church has All the Ideal answers to  Every problem in the World, the Lord's way.

And RCIA is taught by highly educated Priest or Deacon, not amateurs.
Give RCIA a try. Its awesome way to learn all the basics, And requirements. With others also eager to learn why, and what. Live in Jesus! Tony

Sects are the result of people not studying the Word of God for themselves, but taking what other men teach without putting their words to the Biblical test. “to the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this Word there is no light in them” Isaiah 8. Everything Jesus and His apostles taught was in the scriptures, they were not new things; Jesus himself said “search the scriptures for they give testimony of me”, he didn’t say go to the synagogue or ask the priest. Why ask a man, when you can ask God and His Spirit will guide you in his Word for your answers.
Jesus said, “let no man deceive you” you can only be deceived if you follow instructions from men without putting them to the test.

This person insists in saying Mary was assumed into heaven, and yet gives no Scripture proof, or indication from anything that could point to that event. It has failed the Biblical test and therefore its a tradition taught by men. If they choose to believe it, that’s fine but don’t expect those who follow God through His Word to believe an inch of that unscriptual assumption even if its 1000 years old. Because its nothing more than an assumption.