How do future child molesters get through seminary?

[jack63]

I know. When I went thru high school, I saw abuse in a public school that would have easily ended a priest’s ministry. In some cases these teachers were sent packing to another state. In other cases these teachers are still around town receiving awards for their lifetime of service. I do understand this concern.

 

[otjm]

The abuse occurred among a small subset of priests who had/have SSA. Within the group of men who have SSA, ephebophilia is a subset and evidence indicates it is a minority of the whole group.

Ephebophilia is evidenced back to pre Christian Greece, and there is no particular reason to believe it started there - which is another way of saying that we have little or no reports of it occurring within the priesthood prior to known reports now of the abuses gong back to at least the 1950’s.

How does it occur within the priesthood? To be blunt, homosexual men have been ordained, and a subset of them have this attraction to post pubescent boys.

When reports started coming out in the 1990’s, there was speculation as to how many priests (not abuser priests, but all priests) had SSA; the speculation ranged from 10% to 80% - in other words, all over the map.

I have a friend who was ordained, and a decade later asked to be and was laicized; he subsequently married some time afterwards. In a discussion, I asked him what he thought might be the ratio between heterosexual and homosexual priests in his diocese. His estimate was “about 40%”, and he went on to say that in their annual get-together/retreat of the whole diocese, during breaks there were two groups, one of which had some individuals whose mannerisms clearly indicated SSA, and that the breakup was about 60/40. Was that accurate? It was an observation by someone who had spent a significant amount of time with fellow priests.

There is no reason to believe that none of the priests with SSA (with the exception of the abusers) maintain continence (which is the correct term for not engaging in sexual activity); but having had a pastor die of AIDS, neither is there reason to believe that other than the abusers, no priests with SSA engage in sexual activity.

And the same can be said of heterosexual priests; It is likely that most are continent, but occasionally it is clear some have not been. Sin has been in the world since Adam and Eve, and sexual sin has been popular (along with a whole list of other sins). Temptation is the lot of everyone; sexual temptation is the lot of many people, if not most, at one time or another. Most seem to fight temptation; many may give in; some seem to embrace it. And that goes back to the time the mind of man rememberth not. One can scrutinize priests all one wants or is capable of; they are human and many will succumb to temptation to some serious sin (not necessarily sexual sin). That is why they, like the rest of us, go to confession.

I am not trying to make light of it. Certainly the “sexual revolution” of the 60’s had an impact, and certainly groups within the Church were infected by it - meaning seminarians and priests. But it would be the height of naivety to think that it all started then.

Certainly the rule put forth by Pope Benedict will result in house cleaning, but anyone who thinks it is a total cure is hopelessly naive. Wherever God is, the devil is not far behind. (continued)

 

[otjm]

And certainly some could call my cynical, but but there is the issue of the “fox guarding the hen coop”; none of us have any clear evidence of how many of those who are in positions of authority - those in the chanceries, in seminaries, and bishops have SSA. I sincerely doubt that McCarrick is a completely isolated incident; if I remember correctly, there have been several bishops who have resigned over misconduct. For whatever ratio there may be of SSA priests overall, there may be fewer or more percentage-wise in positions of authority. That is not to say that many, if not most of those in authority with SSA do not live continently and strive for holiness. But when it gets down to decision time, how many of them because of their own sexuality will not give a pass to someone with the same sexuality?

 

[otjm]

Agreed; I have been around too long to not agree.

 

[Maximus1]

Not for pedophilia.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Spiritual life is not defined by whether or not one says the rosary or the Way of the Cross

Spiritual life is in part defined by prayer. How we prayer, the time we take to prayer.

The Way of the Cross is prayed in every Church I have been in, during Lent. Pilgimages to the Via Dolorosa and then walking this way have been ongoing since the Passion of Christ. Any exorcist will tell you the Cross is the most important symbol we have.

To discard the importance of Via Dolorosa in the Spiritual growth and maturity of a Catholic , especially a Priest, as what a Priest does during the Liturgy, and in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and not seeing that as having a connection to the Way of the Cross, Well I have no words.

And the OP’s statement is pure speculation on the OP’s part, with no evidence whatsoever. The OP goes backwards from facts (the abuses) to make a statement as fact - but it is not a fact… It is speculation, pure and simple.

You are speculating. And seem to have strayed way off topic.

You are most welcome to discuss what you think may be the problem, but unless you have some evidence to back your discussion, it is plainly and purely nothing but speculation

This is not your thread. This is a public forum. Anyone is free to discuss this as long as they stay on topic, which the entire conversation about mental health definitions and SSA has not.

The best evidence for lack of spiritual growth and maturity and how it can be fostered comes from those who have gone through seminary, become priests, and whose job it is to foster the spiritual growth and maturity of the next generation. It is the job of those who are gainfully employed at seminaries also. And lastly it, as was the example give above, is the job of the head of our church, The Pope. The man giving out rosaries as gifts to priests concelebrating Mass , the man who decides the rosary is the best gift.

And you are free to agree or disagree. However if you to run the ‘evidence’ line, put some up yourself.

 

[Elf01]

St. Paul said it is better to marry than to be on fire, and he was right.

It’s not as easy as deciding to get married.
You have to find someone who you want to marry, is free to marry, and wants to marry you.

 

[PetraG]

It’s not as easy as deciding to get married.
You have to find someone eho you want to marry, is free to marry, and wants to marry you.

This is so true. Having said that, you wouldn’t go through with ordination if you wanted anybody to ever be free to find and marry you.

 

[otjm]

To discard the importance of Via Dolorosa in the Spiritual growth and maturity of a Catholic , especially a Priest, as what a Priest does during the Liturgy, and in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and not seeing that as having a connection to the Way of the Cross, Well I have no words.

Given the amount of Scripture and theology which is taught in Seminary, you re certainly welcome to your opinions, but I seriously doubt that the priests graduating from the seminary in Australia were either ignorant of the Via Dolorosa or incapable of leading the prayer.

Having been in a non-Australian seminary, there certainly was not a focus on the Lenten tradition of the Stations. It may be you have no practical experience of seminary education because the Stations of the Cross have nowhere near the depth of both Scriptural studies and Liturgical practice. They are a pious practice, among many pious practices. However, on a daily basis, seminarians are directly involved in the two Liturgies of the Church - the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours.

You are speculating. And seem to have strayed way off topic.

This is not your thread.

I don’t recall saying it was. And I am as free to discuss it as the OP, you, and everyione else. I do, however, object to bold statements that the priests who have abused teenage boys “have no spiritual life”. I have in fact known 4 priests personally who have been accused of abuse; one I cannot speak to as to his spiritual life; the other three I actually witnessed; two were my pastors (and I can ad the third, who died of AIDS - not from teenagers) and the last who was a classmate and was accused by a juvenile delinquent of abusing him, when the story the juvenile gave was an utter impossibility. All of the latter 4 had a clear and developed spirituality, 3 of whom demonstrated it and the last was actually a classmate of mine in seminary.

I will repeat: the overly broad brush the Op used in saying they (the abusers) had no spirituality is a polite way to put it; the other is that the Op was speculating. If there is one or more studies of abusers which states they had no spirituality, I would invite naming it.

There are people who are troubled by terrible burdens of temptation and failings; and there are some people, a very small minority in my experience, who have little or no spirituality and exhibit that lack. But to simply say that abusers have no spirituality with no evidence whatsoever is the definition of speculating.

(continued)

 

[otjm]

(continued)
Let’s put it another way. Another sexual sin, that of self abuse is clearly damaging to the individual; to say that someone has that habit is not to say that they have no spirituality. They are very susceptible to the sin; but that does not preclude having a spirituality; and you could ask just about any confessor and I suspect you will get the same answer. It has been said repeatedly that there is no sin which is totally private, and all sin hurts the Body of Christ - you, me and all believers. Self abuse damages the individual engaged in it; sexual abusers damages not only the abuser but also the child, and we all car recall what Christ had to say about that. But no one is incapable of being given forgiveness of their sins and mercy, including those who abuse children.

I have now put up the evidence. If you find such disagreement with my comments that you suggest I have no right to make them, I would suggest you put me on ignore.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Given the amount of Scripture and theology which is taught in Seminary, you re certainly welcome to your opinions, but I seriously doubt that the priests graduating from the seminary in Australia were either ignorant of the Via Dolorosa or incapable of leading the prayer.

I did not realise I required your permission to have my opinions. Its quite quaint really.

You were in a seminary for 2 years. In a non Australian Seminary. Now I don’t know the era, but that is beside the point.
It is well known and discussed what happened in Australian Seminaries and what Cardinal Pell did to clean things up and re instate practices to install spiritual maturity and growth in Seminarians.

Your experience in your two years does not equate to the experience everywhere.

What decade did you do your 2 years in Seminary? To be fair I must tell you that some of my language and theology classes are with Seminarians. And this will be the case for the next few years.

To discuss AIDS and delinquency is again off topic so I won’t comment.

However there is no denying the extent of abuse Australia suffered at the hands of clergy. I was talking with a Priest yesterday who is travelling to a Diocese and Parish who has experienced 3 sexually abusive priests in a row, and now has to pick up the pieces.
This Priest does not speculate , nor do his peers.

He also said that between 1965 and 1980 globally over 100 000 priests stopped being priests and went back to being laity. He has lived this. Experienced it.

Another sexual sin, that of self abuse i

Lets not put it another way and discuss self sexual sin, this thread is not about that. It is clearly about clergy and religious who were abusive others. Again you are off topic.

I have now put up the evidence. If you find such disagreement with my comments that you suggest I have no right to make them, I would suggest you put me on ignore.

You have no evidence and I really can’t define your argument because you are way off topic and bringing in all sorts of other issues.

I would suggest you put me on ignore.

Why, so I cannot dispute what you are saying?

I am happy to discuss this with you , if you keep it on topic and relevant. And again when you wish to declare you put up evidence, actually put up peer reviewed backed evidence or witness from priests who were there, who experienced this and deal with making seminaries good places again.

Good day to you

 

[GiftofMercy]

This thread is about seminaries, how they were, how they are, what measures are taken to prevent the evil that came out of them.

This thread is also about the spiritual growth and maturity of seminarians who are to become our future priests and leaders, even our Pope.

 

[JimG]

I think that maybe the question to be asked is not how they got through seminary undetected, but rather how four years of seminary can be expected to undo sixteen years of sexual indoctrination imposed in elementry school, high school, and college.

 

[GiftofMercy]

I think that maybe the question to be asked is not how they got through seminary undetected, but rather how four years of seminary can be expected to undo sixteen years of sexual indoctrination imposed in elementry school, high school, and college.

This is a good question, then the original question becomes a very regional and country specific question.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Also false is the idea that the CC has more of an issue than other organizations, and

Except, the fact that only CC have the Eucharist, and the fact those priests celebrate mass everyday, and still fall to such terrible sin over and over again. I thought such scenario was impossible.

Ecxept, the fact that the church teach moral theology and would hold highest moral standard in her operations.

I think it is fair that we expect more from CC than other organization.

 

[JimG]

I think it is fair that we expect more from CC than other organization.

That’s true, but it seems that somewhere along the way, some people stopped believing that moral theology applied to them personally, or began to believe that when it came to sex, anything was permissible.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

In the past, I knew that being a moral person alone is not enough to go to heaven. Now, the more I am convinced that moral theology has failed to even make us moral people.

 

[MamaJewel]

Molesters can get into any group, because they are manipulative opportunists who know what to say or do to earn the respect of those around them.

Well-adjusted people with healthy boundaries and decent morals and ethics look at the actions and words of others and take it at face value. In other words, we trust that a person is ok by what we deem to be ok through our filters.

Molesters maneuver within their circles in ways that send a message that they are honorable, trustworthy individuals. It is the monster inside that they save to come out in the dark behind closed doors.

Also, once a molester has won the respect of the group, cognitive dissonance kicks in for the decent folk who don’t want to believe they’ve let a monster into their presence. As a result, denial by the powerful and influential in the group allows the monster to continue to perpetrate harrowing acts of injustice against the victim(s).

 

[otjm]

I did not realise I required your permission to have my opinions.

You don’t need to try to put words in my mouth. I did not say that.

Your experience in your two years does not equate to the experience everywhere.

You are presuming my experience is limited to my two years in the seminary. It is not, as any reading of my posts with you would show.

What decade did you do your 2 years in Seminary? To be fair I must tell you that some of my language and theology classes are with Seminarians. And this will be the case for the next few years.

It appears you are still in school. I graduated from college in 1968; Law School in 1974, and have handled a multitude of sexual abuse cases representing children who were abused.

He also said that between 1965 and 1980 globally over 100 000 priests stopped being priests and went back to being laity. He has lived this. Experienced it.

CARA keeps statistics not only the the US, but also keeps them world wide. Athough the information publicly available is bey every 5 years, in 1970 there were 419,278 priests world wide of which 270,924 were diocesan, and 4,622 diocesan ordinations. In 1975 world wide there were 404,783 worldwide, of which 259.331 were diocesan and 4140 diocesan ordinations. In 1980, there 413,600 priests world wide, of which 257,409 were diocesan and 3,860 ordinations. Given deaths as well as priests leaving the priesthood, 100,000 doesn’t seem to add up; but CARA does not list the number of priest world wide prior to 1970. There would have had to be somewhere around 86,500 leaving between 1965 and the count in 1970. I certainly do not recall any such drop as it would have been world news.

You have no evidence and I really can’t define your argument because you are way off topic and bringing in all sorts of other issues.

I have put in evidence what you do not want to consider, as you keep changing points. You might have been very successful in debate, as some of your responses to my comments give evidence of debate tactics. My first contact with an abusive priest was in 1960 as a freshman in high school; several of my classmates and I would catch a ride with one of two priests who taught at the Catholic high school. As a 14 year old, I could not articulate why he gave me the creeps, but as soon as I could, I stopped catching a ride with him. He never abused anyone I knew; but 20 years later was one of the first, if not the first priest to be criminally convicted of abusing teenage boys. I have followed closely the aftermath of the revelations of priest abusers including talking at length with attorneys representing abuse victims, as well as my own practice. My experience is that there are consistent threads running through all the abuse claims concerning the abusers.

Thus my point that you may wish to out me on ignore… In any event, I am putting you on ignore.

 

[Sarcelle]

Well put.

The popular image of a pedophile is an old man in a van with a sign saying free candy.

In actuality, pedophiles first groom the parents and gain their trust before even targeting the victim. If the predator holds a position of respectability it’s even easier.

When the victims speak out, they are not believed. This happens all the time and not just in the Church.