How do I refute claims that we Christians worship the Sun?

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Ivor_Law said:
We all know that the Romans worshipped the Sun: its symbol was emblazoned on their war shields. We are also told that the emperor Constantine ‘converted’ to Christianity as he lay dying because of a dream/vision in which the outcome of a battle was seen, the cross dominating that dream/vision. Perhaps when reaching an agreement for the Roman Catholic Church to be head-quartered in Rome, those early Christians agreed to have the sun dominate various aspects of Christianity. It is interesting that Christ’s birth, held by many to be the 6th of January, is celebrated around the same time that the sun is at the Tropic of Capricorn after which the days in the northern hemisphere grow noticeably longer.
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**The January feast had been a feast of Horus; Dec. 25th was close to the Saturnalia. To observe Christian feasts with Christian meanings would be a good way of crowding these other feasts out of both time & practice, & of “redeeming the time” for Christ’s purposes. Why leave time to demons ? What right have they to it ? **​

**The Church of that time might conceivably be accused of bloody-minded intolerance; hardly of temporising with sun-worship. If it was so yielding, why was penitential practice so severe ? The Roman Church , & others, was as hard as nails on those who lapsed through fear of martyrdom - that’s partly why Constantine, his successors, & several Bishops of Rome, as well as the African Church, had the Donatists to deal with. **
The Sabbath is another concern. If Jesus was part of the Essene Community, their Sabbath was on Saturday, not 'Sun’day. Was this another (rather embarrasing) accomodation of the early Church? Maybe the Seventh Day Adventists know better.
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Jesus is most unlikely to have been an Essene, if the Dead Sea community was Essene. The Church may quite possibly have taken some hints from it, but as both were Jewish, apocalyptically-minded, communities, it’s not surprising there are similarities.​

 
Ivor_Law said:
The Sabbath is another concern. If Jesus was part of the Essene Community, their Sabbath was on Saturday, not 'Sun’day. Was this another (rather embarrasing) accomodation of the early Church? Maybe the Seventh Day Adventists know better.
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I’ve already said it before here. The Church doesn’t celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday. The Sabbath is still Saturday. It will always be Saturday. But we don’t go to Church because of the Sabbath. We go to Church on Sunday because that is the day of the Ressurrection.
 
lemonbeam said:
How do I refute claims from an atheist that we Christians worship the Sun. This particular person told me that in St Peters Square in the Vatican, there is a massive sundial based around an Egyptian monument to horus. What does an Egyptian representation of the genitals of a sun god have to do with Jesus.

Now I know that we worship the Son, but how do I refute these claims? Thanks in advance!
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Easy. Ask any Catholic if he worships the sun. He’ll answer no.

This is a ridiculous claim I keep hearing, how they liken Catholicism to paganism. Okay, sure, it’s true that Christmas overtook the pagan solstace on 25 December, but that doesn’t paganise Christmas. If you ask people what that day is, they’ll tell you it’s Christmas, not the solstace, not the winter feast to whatever pagan deity they had back then.

While some things Catholic had roots in some pagan customs, the question is, what does it mean for us today? Nothing. We use incense to worship our God; so what if pagans did it for their deities? So what if they also used gold? It doesn’t matter. Nobody today sees them as relating to paganism or as signs of pagan beliefs. If people do happen to see it that way, then they’re just intentionally looking to malign Catholicism.

It’s like if you had the same word in many different languages, but they meant different things in those languages. The many different meanings don’t matter when you’re speaking to people who speak the same language as you do, right?

These arguments people come up with get stupider and stupider, and frankly, yeah, it can be a struggle to answer them. Their accusations were designed to try to stun us into submission. Well, fortunately the Catholic Church is a Body with many parts; we have each other to rely on when we need help deconstructing these moronic arguments.
 
lemonbeam said:
How do I refute claims from an atheist that we Christians worship the Sun. This particular person told me that in St Peters Square in the Vatican, there is a massive sundial based around an Egyptian monument to horus. What does an Egyptian representation of the genitals of a sun god have to do with Jesus.

Now I know that we worship the Son, but how do I refute these claims? Thanks in advance!
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Woulds posters stick to the question, why is there a phallic symbol plonked in front of St Peters’s in the Vatican, an elliptical ‘square’ where Catholics gather to do what they do.
 
cassini said:
Woulds posters stick to the question, why is there a phallic symbol plonked in front of St Peters’s in the Vatican, an elliptical ‘square’ where Catholics gather to do what they do.
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Since there isn’t, the question cannot be answered. An obelisk is not a stone penis, sorry - people only think of them as penises because of Freud & his disciples; as well as because just about everything these days has been sexualised :eek: Which says a lot about those people, & nothing about the Egyptians.​

 
cassini said:
Woulds posters stick to the question, why is there a phallic symbol plonked in front of St Peters’s in the Vatican, an elliptical ‘square’ where Catholics gather to do what they do.
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Hey, candlesticks are vaguely phallic as well, don’t forget those! Oh!, and communion wafers are round like the sun with a big plus sign on them!

Sometimes claims are so idiotic as to not deserve any serious rebuttal. :rolleyes:
 
chris_molter said:
Hey, candlesticks are vaguely phallic as well, don’t forget those! Oh!, and communion wafers are round like the sun with a big plus sign on them!

Sometimes claims are so idiotic as to not deserve any serious rebuttal. :rolleyes:
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Amen to that.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Since there isn’t, the question cannot be answered. An obelisk is not a stone penis, sorry - people only think of them as penises because of Freud & his disciples; as well as because just about everything these days has been sexualised :eek: Which says a lot about those people, & nothing about the Egyptians.​

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My goodness, but don’t we have some very naive Catholics prowling this forum. At the risk of giving some a heart attack, I submit the following.

‘We shall digress briefly to tell a little of the story of a Vatican obelisk…since these matters have a bearing on our primary theme – namely the survival of secret traditions that have carried ancient Egyptian religious concepts and symbolisms through time and lodged them in western heartlands of orthodox Christian power.’ — Talisman, p.303

Freemasonry is little more than the continuation of the Mysteries, the religious institutions of the sun-worshipping pagans. Among other things, there is a common legend as the explanation for their rites and symbols. This bond, common in the hermetic, Gnostic and cabbala writings, is called Phallicism. In all of them, homage was paid either to the phallus as an object of adoration and worship, or as a symbol of the creative principle, or to the sun as the generative principle. It is the basis of sun worship, tree-worship, animal worship, serpent worship, and man worship.

‘Phallicism, fundamentally, is the deification and worship of the procreative or self-propagating power of the life of nature, that secret mysterious energy, endowment or power that animates all vegetable and animal creatures, and which perpetually dying, renews itself in new, similar yet different forms. Phallicists view this mysterious energy as the divine nature, and usually in the conception of the divine triad, the creator, the preserver and the destroyer of life, and worship and adore it as the deity. One of the most ancient as well as the most widespread forms of phallicism was sun worship, heliolatry, or light worship, Mithraism.
In view of the divine command “Increase and multiply, and fill the earth” (Gen.1:28), the generation of human life became a most solemn privilege, a pure and holy function. The Mystery of it must have impressed most profoundly the first human pair, and doubtless the first religious act on the part of Adam and Eve was an appreciation to the Source and Author of life for the power to procreate it. In the course of time this Author and Source became associated with the organs and factors of its reproduction, and then supplanted by them as an object of veneration and worship. The mysterious rite of connubial love became perverted, the imagination of man’s senseless heart became corrupt, the power of procreating life became deified and worshipped under phallic emblems, which in turn became the deities. The perversion continued until it culminated in many places and in divers ages, in sacred prostitution. The phallic emblems became objects of adoration.’ — Freemasonry and Interpretation.

It is claimed the word obelisk literally means ‘Baal’s shaft’ or ‘Baal’s organ of Reproduction’ — Dr Cathy Burns: Masonic and Occult Symbols, p.341.

As a sign of its power in the world, pagan Rome transported many Egyptian monuments and artefacts for display throughout their city. Obelisks were deemed ideal for this purpose. One such obelisk was the giant made out of solid granite, climbing 25 metres high and weighing in at over 320 tons and whose history showed it was made for ancient Egypt’s most sacred city Anu, known to the Greeks as Heliopolis, meaning ‘The City of the Sun’, a city that had at its centre the glorious Sun Temple. This pillar however, was unusual in that no hieroglyphics were written on it. The story goes that in 37AD, the emperor Caligula (12-41AD) ordered this obelisk transported to Rome and placed in the Vatican circus, a site used for chariot racing. St Peter was martyred on this very spot thus giving the place eternal notoriety.
With the advent of Constantine the Great and his concessions to Christianity throughout his empire, the Emperor decided to allow this part of Rome to become the home of Catholicism. The great Basilica of St Peter rose up from the ground over the years and other marvellous buildings were created for the business of running the Church. As for the obelisk of Heliopolis, well, while still on the site, providentially, it became redundant and faded into obscurity on some waste ground.

Will I continue?
 
Obviously whoever says this has not had a thorough grounding in the basics of “Star Trek”.
“I’m afraid you have it all wrong. All of you. I’ve been monitoring their old style radio broadcasts. The Empire’s spokesman trying to ridicule their religion. But he couldn’t. (after a brief silence) Don’t you understand? It’s not the sun up in the sky. It’s the Son of God!” – Lt. Uhura, “Bread and Circuses”, original air date 3/15/68
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bpcatholic said:
There are many Christians as well who like to argue that Catholics worship the Sun. Jack Chick I believe is one of them.
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Ah, yes…Jack Chick. Poor artist with an equally poor understanding of Catholic theology.
chris_molter said:
I suggest howls of derisive laughter followed by walking away slowly while chuckling and shaking your head.
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LOL 😃

Or add, “That’s a good one”.
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
Easy. Ask any Catholic if he worships the sun. He’ll answer no.
.
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And that’s because he doesn’t know he does. From 1741 did not Catholics do a U-turn and embrace the sun-centred world previously condemned as heresy by the Church? Did a pope not have a phallic obelisk used by sun-worshipers placed in front of St Peters, and create an ellipse around it, similar to that heretical heliocentric belief under condemnation at the time? Did not Vatican II actually scold those popes who rejected this sun-centred belief? Did not Pope John Paul II, defend this sun-centred belief in a speech before the PAS in 1992.

Yes, Catholics do worship the sun by granting heliocentricism as the word of God…
 
cassini said:
And that’s because he doesn’t know he does.
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Congrats, you’ve just refuted yourself. If someone doesn’t know they’re worshipping something then they AREN’T worshipping it. Worship requires consent of the will.
Yes, Catholics do worship the sun by granting heliocentricism as the word of God…
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You’ll have better luck convincing us we worship a cracker.
 
chris_molter said:
Congrats, you’ve just refuted yourself. If someone doesn’t know they’re worshipping something then they AREN’T worshipping it. Worship requires consent of the will.

You’ll have better luck convincing us we worship a cracker.
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Obviously you don’t know the ways of the Devil, pal.
 
cassini said:
Obviously you don’t know the ways of the Devil, pal.
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So… the devil can trick us into worshipping him or something other than God against our will? If we intend to worship God, he can pull a switcheroo and suddenly make us worship a ball of burning hydrogen without us knowing the difference?
 
chris_molter said:
So… the devil can trick us into worshipping him or something other than God against our will? If we intend to worship God, he can pull a switcheroo and suddenly make us worship a ball of burning hydrogen without us knowing the difference?
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All the gods of the gentiles are devils. So says the Bible
 
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