How do I refute claims that we Christians worship the Sun?

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cassini said:
So the Bible said.
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The Bible also says that you don’t have to be Jewish to enter into the New Covenant with God. Hence why Christian men don’t have to be circumcised. Do try to use some common sense and logic in your attacks.
 
chris_molter said:
Hey, candlesticks are vaguely phallic as well, don’t forget those! Oh!, and communion wafers are round like the sun with a big plus sign on them!

Sometimes claims are so idiotic as to not deserve any serious rebuttal. :rolleyes:
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When did that ever stop nonsense being believed 😦 ?​

People believe evil of others because they want to - the evidence they put forward is a cover for the conclusions they have already reached. That is why reasoning with them is useless - except when speaking to someone who is asking questions. But there’s no point arguing with people whose mind is made up. 😦 If they want to believe Catholics worship giant penises - they will manage to “prove” (at least to their own satisfaction) that everything said in denial of that, is proof that it must be true. This is a psychological problem - it’s immune to rationality.

Why ? Perhaps because it’s an expression of religious faith. If someone’s religion is built on the conviction that that those who don’t share it are phallolaters, all discussion with them is at an end.
 
cassini said:
My goodness, but don’t we have some very naive Catholics prowling this forum. At the risk of giving some a heart attack, I submit the following.

‘We shall digress briefly to tell a little of the story of a Vatican obelisk…since these matters have a bearing on our primary theme – namely the survival of secret traditions that have carried ancient Egyptian religious concepts and symbolisms through time and lodged them in western heartlands of orthodox Christian power.’ — Talisman, p.303

Freemasonry is little more than the continuation of the Mysteries, the religious institutions of the sun-worshipping pagans. Among other things, there is a common legend as the explanation for their rites and symbols. This bond, common in the hermetic, Gnostic and cabbala writings, is called Phallicism. In all of them, homage was paid either to the phallus as an object of adoration and worship, or as a symbol of the creative principle, or to the sun as the generative principle. It is the basis of sun worship, tree-worship, animal worship, serpent worship, and man worship.

‘Phallicism, fundamentally, is the deification and worship of the procreative or self-propagating power of the life of nature, that secret mysterious energy, endowment or power that animates all vegetable and animal creatures, and which perpetually dying, renews itself in new, similar yet different forms. Phallicists view this mysterious energy as the divine nature, and usually in the conception of the divine triad, the creator, the preserver and the destroyer of life, and worship and adore it as the deity. One of the most ancient as well as the most widespread forms of phallicism was sun worship, heliolatry, or light worship, Mithraism.
In view of the divine command “Increase and multiply, and fill the earth” (Gen.1:28), the generation of human life became a most solemn privilege, a pure and holy function. The Mystery of it must have impressed most profoundly the first human pair, and doubtless the first religious act on the part of Adam and Eve was an appreciation to the Source and Author of life for the power to procreate it. In the course of time this Author and Source became associated with the organs and factors of its reproduction, and then supplanted by them as an object of veneration and worship. The mysterious rite of connubial love became perverted, the imagination of man’s senseless heart became corrupt, the power of procreating life became deified and worshipped under phallic emblems, which in turn became the deities. The perversion continued until it culminated in many places and in divers ages, in sacred prostitution. The phallic emblems became objects of adoration.’ — Freemasonry and Interpretation.

It is claimed the word obelisk literally means ‘Baal’s shaft’ or ‘Baal’s organ of Reproduction’ — Dr Cathy Burns: Masonic and Occult Symbols, p.341.

As a sign of its power in the world, pagan Rome transported many Egyptian monuments and artefacts for display throughout their city. Obelisks were deemed ideal for this purpose. One such obelisk was the giant made out of solid granite, climbing 25 metres high and weighing in at over 320 tons and whose history showed it was made for ancient Egypt’s most sacred city Anu, known to the Greeks as Heliopolis, meaning ‘The City of the Sun’, a city that had at its centre the glorious Sun Temple. This pillar however, was unusual in that no hieroglyphics were written on it. The story goes that in 37AD, the emperor Caligula (12-41AD) ordered this obelisk transported to Rome and placed in the Vatican circus, a site used for chariot racing. St Peter was martyred on this very spot thus giving the place eternal notoriety.
With the advent of Constantine the Great and his concessions to Christianity throughout his empire, the Emperor decided to allow this part of Rome to become the home of Catholicism. The great Basilica of St Peter rose up from the ground over the years and other marvellous buildings were created for the business of running the Church. As for the obelisk of Heliopolis, well, while still on the site, providentially, it became redundant and faded into obscurity on some waste ground.

Will I continue?
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Yes - anyone who trusts Masonic interpretations of the religion of Pharaonic Egypt can very reasonably be called naive. No doubt such a person will swallow the equally late & equally context-free interpretations of Mesoptamian religion that try to interpret it as a a sort of Babylonian Catholicism. :rolleyes:​

 
Well, we do worship the Sun of Justice, who rises with healing in his wings – which is to say, Christ, as prophesied by Malachi. And we do look to the East for the Second Coming of the Bridegroom as prophesied in Psalm 19, one of the favorite scripture passages of the earliest Christians. St. Justin Martyr explained, both in his First Apologia and his Dialogue with Trypho, the importance of this psalm verse. Here’s the First Apologia bit:

"And hear how it was foretold concerning those who published [Jesus’] doctrine and proclaimed His appearance, the above-mentioned prophet and king [David] speaking thus by the Spirit of prophecy: *“Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. In the sun hath He set His tabernacle, and he as a bridegroom going out of his chamber shall rejoice as a giant to run his course.”
*

And of course, the sun and moon both darkened at the Crucifixion of Christ. Shame on God for involving the pagan Sun in all that, much less Yehoshua’s battle at Ajalon and Noah’s rainbow sign, which wouldn’t work without sunlight. But of course He created the whole problem in the first place, by rudely daring to create the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and the stars.

So if you believe that Christians shouldn’t worship Christ; that they shouldn’t read the Psalms, Malachi, Joshua, Genesis, or the the Gospels; and that God creating the universe was a big mistake; I suppose it would be okay to remove all symbolism connected to the sun or the east from Christian places of worship. We’ll be sure to get right on that.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Yes - anyone who trusts Masonic interpretations of the religion of Pharaonic Egypt can very reasonably be called naive. No doubt such a person will swallow the equally late & equally context-free interpretations of Mesoptamian religion that try to interpret it as a a sort of Babylonian Catholicism. :rolleyes:​

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Catholicism is bereft of the esoteric. Catholics today know nothing of the devil, his ways and his ‘priests’. Here we find the Garden of Eden being re-enacted throughout history. 'Don’t believe THAT, here, take a bite of my advice and wisdom, sure everyone is going to heaven.
 
FanChan said:
The Bible also says that you don’t have to be Jewish to enter into the New Covenant with God. Hence why Christian men don’t have to be circumcised. Do try to use some common sense and logic in your attacks.
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FanChan, I’m not attacking, simply trying to establish in the naive minds on this thread that that obelisk in St Peter’s Square is one of the main symbols of the Devil used by the ancient egyptians. It was put up by a pope as a symbol of the temporal power of catholicism of his day, and that is not christian, thus of the Devil. I know the coming of Christ opened the way to truth for all, but not many took that route, most gentiles stuck with their ‘devil’ worshiping.
 
FanChan said:
Er…so any and all non-Jewish people worship devils?
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Further to the wiles of the Devil, it seems to me that the following from the first Google site Voice of the Sheep might help you understand:

Chapter eight, where Jesus begins to really separate the sheep from the goats. There are some powerful truths contained in this chapter, and two in particular that I would like to focus in on for a moment. I will put them in bullet points.
Code: 
-There are two groups of people: 1) those who have God as their Father, and 2) those who have the devil as their father. In verse 42, Jesus says to those who had supposedly believed in Him back in verse 30, “If God were your Father, you would love Me”, and then in verse 44 He says, “You are of your father the devil”. Two distinct groups of people: God’s children and the devil’s children.
And here is the gas part: they thought they were worshiping God, and they were Jews as well as gentiles.
-Those who have the devil as their father have no ability to hear the truth when it is proclaimed. Those who can in fact hear the truth hear it because their Father was God even before they heard the truth and responded. Jesus, talking to these same apparent ‘believers’ from verse 30 says, “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.” Then in verse 47 He states another indicative - “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you [children of the devil] do not hear them, because you are not from God.”
 
chris_molter said:
Congrats, you’ve just refuted yourself. If someone doesn’t know they’re worshipping something then they AREN’T worshipping it. Worship requires consent of the will.

You’ll have better luck convincing us we worship a cracker.
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From 1741 did not Catholics do a U-turn and embrace the sun-centred world previously condemned as heresy by the Church? Did a pope not have a phallic obelisk used by sun-worshipers placed in front of St Peters, and create an ellipse around it, similar to that heretical heliocentric belief under condemnation at the time? Did not Vatican II actually scold those popes who rejected this sun-centred belief? Did not Pope John Paul II, defend this sun-centred belief in a speech before the PAS in 1992.

Yes, Catholics do worship the sun by granting heliocentricism as the word of God…

All the above is for you too chris.
 
Mintaka said:
Well, we do worship the Sun of Justice, who rises with healing in his wings – which is to say, Christ, as prophesied by Malachi. And we do look to the East for the Second Coming of the Bridegroom as prophesied in Psalm 19, one of the favorite scripture passages of the earliest Christians. St. Justin Martyr explained, both in his First Apologia and his Dialogue with Trypho, the importance of this psalm verse. Here’s the First Apologia bit:

"And hear how it was foretold concerning those who published [Jesus’] doctrine and proclaimed His appearance, the above-mentioned prophet and king [David] speaking thus by the Spirit of prophecy: *“Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. In the sun hath He set His tabernacle, and he as a bridegroom going out of his chamber shall rejoice as a giant to run his course.”
*

And of course, the sun and moon both darkened at the Crucifixion of Christ. Shame on God for involving the pagan Sun in all that, much less Yehoshua’s battle at Ajalon and Noah’s rainbow sign, which wouldn’t work without sunlight. But of course He created the whole problem in the first place, by rudely daring to create the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and the stars.

So if you believe that Christians shouldn’t worship Christ; that they shouldn’t read the Psalms, Malachi, Joshua, Genesis, or the the Gospels; and that God creating the universe was a big mistake; I suppose it would be okay to remove all symbolism connected to the sun or the east from Christian places of worship. We’ll be sure to get right on that.
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The above deserves a reply. However, I have discovered that on this forum we have so many amateurs plying their theological wares that reality hasn’t a chance of getting through. It is true that Catholicism today is bereft on any concept of the real battle of Genesis 3:15. All would think that Vatican II, that contradiction of tradition, ended the war and handed complete victory to Jesus Christ. My but the Devil must be laughing as he casts his net out for his harvest.

THE LAWS OF WAR: KNOW YOUR ENEMY

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12.

Now what of this war? It takes place on a level far higher than any simple Catholic could even imagine. It began in the Garden of Eden. It split the family of Adam and Eve into two distinct sides, those of the Devil and those of God. After the Flood it again split humanity into two distinct sides, one of God, the other against Him, the way of the Devil, the Hebrews and the pagans. The pagans worshipped their phallic gods and their sun-gods, heliopolis being the capital city of this devil worshipping. From heliopolis was brought its phallic obilisk by a pagan Emperor. That same phallic symbol was placed in St Peters Square by a pope who cleared the place of people’s homes. Objections were met by force, not very ‘Catholic’ I would say… They even tried to christianise it by placing a cross on it. All this did was enhance its symbolism because the original shaft had a cross on top of it in Heliopolis. The Devil mimicks. I showed above where the Freemasons are aware of this perversion of the procreative act (sodomy being the greatest contempt for God’s order to increase and multiply). Freemasons have a far greater understanding of things that any Catholic (they have to, for to destroy something you have to know all about that thing) only to be met by this forum’s infamous one liner, ad hominum ploy, adding of course their favourite stupid face. So, instead of learning something, the rest of the readers were made look gullible if the took this writer seriously.

The Sun, has its place in Catholic theology, the Fathers and Doctors have written all about its comparison to God. It is for us humans a perfect symbol for God, the brightest thing in our lives and life giving by its effects.
It is natural then for the devil to twist the thing a make it an instrument for himself. He did this with the pagans, but he had a further use of it reserved for his attack on Christianity, for their religion coveted their sun-centred system, their sun-god-centred world. Few will not know of the Copernican revolution. But how many will even entertain for a minute that it was also the Devil’s revolution?
Well, here is the test. If it destroys faith then it is of the Devil.
I subscribe that once this defined and declared heresy of the SUN was overturned and re-entered into the Church as an orthodox interpretation of the Bible, it can be shown to have led to Modernism and the great apostasy of our time, just as Pope Urban VIII predicted it would.

Now it is time for the really really informed experts on this forum to make fun of the above lest someone takes the truth seriously. That is what the Devil wants, to be exonerated of any such ‘conspiracies’. Oh, and add a few faces, they sum up the contributions to perfection.
 
cassini said:
FanChan, I’m not attacking, simply trying to establish in the naive minds on this thread that that obelisk in St Peter’s Square is one of the main symbols of the Devil used by the ancient egyptians. It was put up by a pope as a symbol of the temporal power of catholicism of his day, and that is not christian, thus of the Devil. I know the coming of Christ opened the way to truth for all, but not many took that route, most gentiles stuck with their ‘devil’ worshiping.
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You can’t say you’re not attacking and then outright call us all naive, as though you’re the only person capable of doing a little research or discerning the truth for themselves. Being Catholic does not equal blind obedience and blind faith, though any of us will admit that a great majority of our numbers don’t care to educate themselves about their faith, and a vast number of those believe things that are false. But those are individuals, and their poor faith cannot be equated to the Church’s teachings.

And, again. No one is saying that that obelisk was never a pagan symbol. But the Church has a great history of adopting pagan symbolism, and as someone else said, baptises them, making them new, giving them new meaning, a better meaning. These days, the average person doesn’t look at an obelisk and see a pagan god’s private parts. They see a monument, a declaration of something great, a symbol of something with great power and promise. You’re not changing anyone’s minds here, Cassini, so, you might as well move on.
 
FanChan said:
You can’t say you’re not attacking and then outright call us all naive, as though you’re the only person capable of doing a little research or discerning the truth for themselves. Being Catholic does not equal blind obedience and blind faith, though any of us will admit that a great majority of our numbers don’t care to educate themselves about their faith, and a vast number of those believe things that are false. But those are individuals, and their poor faith cannot be equated to the Church’s teachings.

And, again. No one is saying that that obelisk was never a pagan symbol. But the Church has a great history of adopting pagan symbolism, and as someone else said, baptises them, making them new, giving them new meaning, a better meaning. These days, the average person doesn’t look at an obelisk and see a pagan god’s private parts. They see a monument, a declaration of something great, a symbol of something with great power and promise. You’re not changing anyone’s minds here, Cassini, so, you might as well move on.
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How can anyone make an obelisk used in Heliopolis as a phallic symbol a non phallic symbol in Rome? God you guys really stretch the imagination in your denial. The dogs in the street know what they were and no amount of rhetoric can change that.

Why couldn’t they do what any normal Catholic would see was the right thing to do. Smash the bloody thing up or leave it in the ditch where it belonged. No, it was put back up as an insult to Catholicism - a symbol to the Church’s temporal power on earth (which is not Catholic). Were the people thrown out of their houses to site the thing dtaking that as love for the faith? You know, I’m a long time on this earth and only on this and other catholic forums have I found such nonsense’
 
cassini said:
How can anyone make an obelisk used in Heliopolis as a phallic symbol a non phallic symbol in Rome?
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Because it’s just an obelisk. It’s just a tower of stone. It has no personal identity. It’s a thing. An inanimate object. One person may have made it to be one thing, but another person does not have to see it the same way. Strictly speaking, it’s a piece of art, that has a different meaning to each person that views it. What’s more, it’s abstract art, meaning that two people can look at it and see two different things, and neither would be wrong. The artist may have had something intended when it was made, but we are not the artist, and we are not forced to see it as he did. We can take it to mean what we wish it to mean. That’s not denial, that’s interpretation. There’s no infallible interpretation of the obelisk. Your interpretation does not have to be mine, or anyone else’s, and your saying we’re delusional for having a different interpretation is to suggest that you’re infallible. It just doesn’t work that way.
 
FanChan said:
Because it’s just an obelisk. It’s just a tower of stone. It has no personal identity. It’s a thing. An inanimate object. One person may have made it to be one thing, but another person does not have to see it the same way. Strictly speaking, it’s a piece of art, that has a different meaning to each person that views it. What’s more, it’s abstract art, meaning that two people can look at it and see two different things, and neither would be wrong. The artist may have had something intended when it was made, but we are not the artist, and we are not forced to see it as he did. We can take it to mean what we wish it to mean. That’s not denial, that’s interpretation. There’s no infallible interpretation of the obelisk. Your interpretation does not have to be mine, or anyone else’s, and your saying we’re delusional for having a different interpretation is to suggest that you’re infallible. It just doesn’t work that way.
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Good try fanchan (your not chinese by any chance?), but whereas much of what you say is true, my original point is still vindicated. We know the thing IS a phallic symbol once the centrepiece of a pagan people who worshipped their god/devil (Psalm 95:5 says, “The gods of the gentiles are devils.” Saint Francis Xavier, one of the greatest missionaries in history said, “All the invocations of the pagans are hateful to God because all their gods are devils.”

Yes what you say is correct and the popes did not INTEND to use this devil’s spire as a devil spire, but a symbol of temporal power, just as Caligula brought it to Rome as a symbol of power. But it is a devil’s carving and it was he, not God, whose influence had it brought to Rome by way of human pride in their temporal power. Thereafter, whereas we know it was not put up by popes to act as a phallic symbol, it IS a phallic symbol. And that was my point many posts ago, the ones you shot down, that Catholics pay homage to a phallic symbol of the sun-worshipping pagans of old without knowing they do it.

Tell you what fanchan, given what you know now, would you have (I keep having to avoid the verb I want to use) put up this obelisk, this symbol of the devil worshiping/ child sacrificing ancient Egyptians?
 
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